Should we give up next year's first to move up in the draft? (1 Viewer)

[bergeaux]

See but now you're greying the lines between an All-Time great defense to a top 10 defense. Those defenses and offenses you listed there are All-Time greats. We just need a top 10 defense to go with our #1 or 2 ranked offense to be Superbowl Contenders.

There's the difference......

Very good point. OK, so maybe we are closer than I thought to a top 10 D. That doesn't mean we should mortgage the future for Dorsey or Ellis, but it does mean that maybe we only need one good player to put us in the top 10. I want to be in the top 10, but also be able to get better every year.

 

[LSSpam]

NE in the big D years had Vrabel, Bruschi, Seymore, Ty Law, and Harrison. Indy has Manning, Harrison, Wayne, Clark and Adai. Back in the day TB had Warren Sapp, Simeon Rice, Derrick Brooks John Lynch and Ronde Barber.

Bruschi, and not really Vrabel, were never big "play makers" though. And they didn't have Ty Law for their best defensive years.

By the same token, the great Dungy defenses didn't have Simeon Rice, and no CB could ever be called a "playmaker" for a Tampa-2 defense. It was largely Sapp and Brooks, and to a lesser extent Lynch.

The great 1999 Bucs defense you're thinking of had Chidi Ahanotu, Marcus Jones, and Brad Culpepper starting on that defensive line with Warren Sapp

The 2000 Ravens had Boulware and Ray Lewis, sure. It also had Michael McCray and Rob Burnett at DE and Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa at DT.

You appear to be really overrating how much talent it takes to have a good, even World-beating defense.

To reiterate, we had the #12 defense in 2006 with not a whole lot. And we made it to the NFC Championship game.

 

[bergeaux]

Bruschi, and not really Vrabel, were never big "play makers" though. And they didn't have Ty Law for their best defensive years.

By the same token, the great Dungy defenses didn't have Simeon Rice, and no CB could ever be called a "playmaker" for a Tampa-2 defense. It was largely Sapp and Brooks, and to a lesser extent Lynch.

The great 1999 Bucs defense you're thinking of had Chidi Ahanotu, Marcus Jones, and Brad Culpepper starting on that defensive line with Warren Sapp

The 2000 Ravens had Boulware and Ray Lewis, sure. It also had Michael McCray and Rob Burnett at DE and Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa at DT.

You appear to be really overrating how much talent it takes to have a good, even World-beating defense.

To reiterate, we had the #12 defense in 2006 with not a whole lot. And we made it to the NFC Championship game.

I get your point, and maybe I am making it more difficult to be a dominant defense thn it actually is, but I don't think I am. I do think that dominant D's requires 3 to 4 playmakers. I have given in on the point with Chi-Town that we don't need to be a dominant D to win big, just a top 10, but I think it has to be a long term thing because you never know when the time will be just right to actually win. How many years did the Colts have a dominant offense and a decent D and not go?

Just for clarity, the year that Gruden led them to a SB, Rice was there. But yes, he was a late addition. I do consider Barber a playmaker on that team, I understand your point about Tampa-2 CBs, because really they are not covering man to man and it's more a "center fielder" mentality. However, he did make a lot of plays and I consider him a playmaker on that D.

I do think that Bruschi has been a playmaker on that team for some time... Vrabel I might see an argument on, but there were so many on that team, those were just off the cuff. Law was there for the first two of the SBs they won.

Super Bowl XXXVI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Super Bowl XXXVIII - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[LSSpam]

Just for clarity, the year that Gruden led them to a SB, Rice was there. But yes, he was a late addition. I do consider Barber a playmaker on that team, I understand your point about Tampa-2 CBs, because really they are not covering man to man and it's more a "center fielder" mentality. However, he did make a lot of plays and I consider him a playmaker on that D.

Yeah but the defense wasn't as good then as it was in 1999

As far as Tampa-2 CBs, ask the coaches themselves. There's a reason guys like Tony Dungy flat-out don't value CBs much. It's easy to find Tampa-2 CBs.

 

[bergeaux]

Yeah but the defense wasn't as good then as it was in 1999

As far as Tampa-2 CBs, ask the coaches themselves. There's a reason guys like Tony Dungy flat-out don't value CBs much. It's easy to find Tampa-2 CBs.

Agreed. No doubt they do not need to be as great a CB in a Tampa-2, but I still hold that Ronde Barber was a rare breed among Tampa-2 corners.

 

[RoadTrippin']

I disagree strongly with that assessment. There is no chance we are, right now, with the addition of Morgan, Vilma, McCray, Gay, the expected further development of Usama Young, Roman Harper, the recovery of Brian Young (who isn't that old yet) and Charles Grant, a worse defense then in 2007.

IDK, the loss of MM is no small issue. We are keeping our fingers crossed as to Vilma and Morgan.

 

[CHI-TOWNSAINT]

IDK, the loss of MM is no small issue. We are keeping our fingers crossed as to Vilma and Morgan.

To be clear, we haven't lost MM like you are implying. He may be slowed somewhat early in the year, but he will be playing.

 

[BoNcHiE]

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think we have progressed yet. I think we are at best status quo. Mostly because MM will be coming back from knee surgery and won't be back on the field until several games into the season.

Where are you hearing that from? In the past month, Loomis and MM have both said hes on schedule to be ready by TC. MM has been seen playing basketball and jumping up and down at the Hornets game also. I think the tear wasn't as bad as we assumed.

 

[RoadTrippin']

To be clear, we haven't lost MM like you are implying. He may be slowed somewhat early in the year, but he will be playing.

I am glad you can be so clear about that. BTW, I have a touch of sciatica, please tell me how I will be doing in September.

 

[CHI-TOWNSAINT]

I am glad you can be so clear about that. BTW, I have a touch of sciatica, please tell me how I will be doing in September.

I actually talked to MM........does that count. As for your sciatica........ Nice try on the sarcastic comment though.

 

[mister pc]

To be clear, we haven't lost MM like you are implying. He may be slowed somewhat early in the year, but he will be playing.

I must not have seen the updates you have regarding MM's condition. It is my understanding that torn ACLs usually take about a year to fully recover, and Mike tore his in week 16.

 

[Bukowski]

We have way too many question marks on this team, as of right now, to even consider giving away a high draft choice for next year - regardless of the player.

 

[CHI-TOWNSAINT]

I must not have seen the updates you have regarding MM's condition. It is my understanding that torn ACLs usually take about a year to fully recover, and Mike tore his in week 16.

There are different degree in tears. I don't specifically know how bad his was, but he seemed very optimistic that he'd be ready to go full speed by mid training camp.

 

[RoadTrippin']

I actually talked to MM........does that count. As for your sciatica........ Nice try on the sarcastic comment though.

Oh lord. So you really were "that guy?"

 

[CHI-TOWNSAINT]

Oh lord. So you really were "that guy?"

Another immature attemp at sarcasm or wit.:1zhelp: