The Electric Vehicle (EV) discussion thread (Merged) (1 Viewer)


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Charleston, SC
Edit: Added FAQ for drivey-by posters:

Q: Would EVs work well for escaping hurricanes?
A: There are advantages and disadvantages for EV in an evacuation situations. One significant advantage is that the EV is charged at the house, so as long as the area has power, the EV can be charged - whereas ICE cars often have to wait in long gas lines, sometimes without success as gas station may run out.

As far as range goes, EVs do not "idle" and the energy use in climate control is minimal. An ICE on idle or slow, bumper to bumper traffic can use substantial fuel just to operate in those situations - whereas battery demand on an EV is far less, particularly when the owner sets the use to eco mode (because no performance is needed in that kind of driving situation). If an EV has a 250 mile range, the car will be able to achieve most of that range even if it takes 14 hours to get the first 100 miles done.

One disadvantage is refueling in an evacuee situation, where the owner has to live several days or more away from the home charging option. The charging network infrastructure is not ideal, but as EV adoption increases, the network increases - so it really all depends on where the evacuee is and what charging is available nearby. All EVs can charge off of a standard 110v outlet and though charging is very slow, the car can still add enough energy in an overnight charge to handle local needs or to be able to drive to a charging station.

Q: What if the power goes out at your house for several hours one night?
A: Likely no impact. The average EV owner with an average of 200 to 250 miles from an overnight charge at home is not charging the vehicle every night - only once or twice per week on average. A short-term power outage is unlikely to impact the owner at all.

Q: What about areas that tell residents to limit their air conditioning use? That same grid can handle additional car chargers?
A: Most EV charging is overnight when demand on the grid is substantially reduced and more and more home chargers use smart technology that can charge at optimal times when demand is reduced. As the fraction of the vehicle fleet that is EV increases, demand on the grid will increase but most estimates show the increased demand is marginal at modest rates of adoption.

Long-term projections toward full adoption (if that even happens at all) do show a need to enhance the electricity grid but they also show energy gains in the system as that kind of timeline includes efficiency gains in the EV fleet, a reduction of gasoline use, and increased renewable energy production methods on the grid.

Q: What about large apartment complexes or trailer parks? Will charging be in place for them?
A: This seems to suggest that there will be some requirement to have EV, not sure where this is coming from. An individual owner's ability to conveniently charge will be a major factor in whether that person buys an EV. Apartment complexes frequently have charging stations and this will grow as the charging base grows. An owner may also have a convenient charging option elsewhere (e.g. at work). It really all depends on the individual situation.

Q: Does it really put people in the best situation in emergency situations?
A: This question is unclear. Most emergency situations probably aren't likely to see a difference between EV and ICE. Apart from the discussion in the evacuation question above, it really all depends on the particular emergency. For example, EVs can navigate through water more effectively than ICE.

Q: Has all the math been done to prove at the end of the day they are truly that much "greener" and ethical than efficient gasoline vehicles?
A: "Greener" and "ethical" are highly subjective terms, but otherwise, yes, studies (with math) demonstrate greenhouse gas output of EV (including charging from a power plant) versus ICE. This will vary based on how the owner gets the electricity (pure coal power on one end versus renewable on the other) but most Americans get their power from a grid that has different kinds of power input, some cleaner than others, so this is quite variable.

A typical EV use will release between 10 and 30 units of emissions for every 100 by an ICE. In broad terms, this means for every 100K miles, the EV use (with charging) has produced 10 to 30 percent of what the ICE vehicle produced. Both EV and ICE efficiency are increasing so this may vary. Note that for ICE in these studies, they only calculate the car's tailpipe emissions and don't include the emissions from, for example, trucking the gas to the gas pump. So these are never fully complete but the emissions advantage from EV is substantial and well documented. There are websites where you can enter your zipcode and it will give you the breakdown of how your typical kilowatt-hour is produced. You can then take that information to get your actual emissions profile versus an ICE.

Broader studies that include the full scope of the manufacturing for both EV and ICE are far more challenging. EV battery production is not environmentally friendly, nor is fossil fuel production. Thankfully EV battery recycling at the end of the battery's life has dramatically improved over the past 5 to 7 years such that most EV batteries will not see disposal at the end of the EV's battery life.

Some helpful links - though these issues have quite a bit of discussion in various articles:

Jaguar's I-Pace has been delivering for a few months now - the reviews are strong.

The body style is hard to define - not quite the 4-door coupe lines that the Model S gives you. Almost more like a crossover . . . but also something somewhat unique, almost futuristic. The power and handling are said to be undeniable and apparently the car is magnificent to drive. Of course, with any new model it appears there are issues that Jaguar will have to resolve, including a clunky interface and some charging issues.

But in going over a few reviews, the one thing that is consistent is how great it is to drive the car. The acceleration, the cornering (aided by all sorts of technology), the audible experience, etc. - everyone loves to drive it. Even Consumer Reports described the driving experience as "beautiful."

If Jaguar can clean up the issues with the interface, and bring it to the kind of reliability they have on the rest of their line, it will no-doubt put a hurt on Tesla. And the luxury EV market is still just getting going.

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I know Jags had a reputation for being very unreliable. Has that changed in recent years?

Yes. They have done well in JD Power for a good decade or longer - it seems that getting pulled into larger automaker umbrellas helped their quality. They were at or near the top in some dependability and satisfaction rankings but have slipped a bit. Still decent.
I can't imagine this doing particularly well, but the more options in the EV market the better.
I can't imagine this doing particularly well, but the more options in the EV market the better.

Jaguar reported sales of 11,000 I Pace cars in Q1 and it’s just ramping up.

In comparison, Tesla reported Q1 sales of 12,100 of models S and X combined - the models most comparable to the I Pace.

Here is the list of awards the I-Pace has racked up including European Car of the Year and COTY at the recent NY Auto Show.

  • Arab Wheels "2018 EV of the Year" [26]
  • What Car? 2018 Reader Award - "Most Anticipated Car of 2018" [27]
  • Selected for AutoCar Awards "2018 Game Changer" [28]
  • 2018 Auto Express "Car of the Year" and "Premium EV of the Year" [29]
  • "2018 Car of the Year" by Sunday Times [30]
  • 2019 "German Car of the Year"[31]
  • T3 Technology Awards: "Best Car of 2018"[32]
  • Robb Report "October 2018 Car of the Month"[33]
  • Motor Authority "Best Car to Buy 2019" Finalist [34]
  • "Swiss Car of the Year 2019" [35]
  • Overall Winner - Irish Times "Top 100 Cars of 2019" [36]
  • Overall "Car of the Year" and "Best Alternative Fuel Car" at the 2018 Scottish Car of the Year awards[37]
  • 2019 "Car of the Year" by ExtremeTech [38]
  • "Best Premium Electric Car" - Sunday Express [39]
  • Winner - "European Car of the Year 2019" award[40]
  • Finalist in Motor Trend "SUV of the Year"[41]
  • China's "2019 Green Car of the Year"[42]
  • "2019 Scottish Car of the Year"[43]
  • Green Car Reports "Best Car to Buy 2019" Finalist [44]
  • "Best Car of the Year 2018" by Pocket Lint[45]
  • "Best Luxury Compact SUV 2019" by U.S. News & World Report [46]
  • ALG's "2019 Residual Value Award" for Electric Category[47]
  • Popular Science "Best of 2018 Innovations" - Grand Award Winner[48]
  • Driving Electric's 2019 "Best Large Electric Car" [49]
  • "Luxury Green Car of the Year" - LA's 14th Annual Green Car Awards [50]
  • "18 Best Rides of 2018" - Chicago Tribune [51]
  • Professional Driver magazine "2018 Car of the Year"[52]
  • "Top 10 Car of the Year" - The National [53]
  • Forbes "Best Car Designs of 2018"[54]
  • Stuff Magazine "Car of the Year 2018"[55]
  • Top Gear magazine "EV of the Year 2018"[56]
  • "Norwegian Car of the Year 2019"[57]
  • CleanTechnica "2019 Car of the Year" Finalist[58]
  • GQ 2019 Car Awards: "Best Electric Car You'd Actually Drive"[59]
  • WhichCar "Style Awards 2019" - Finalist [60]
  • "2019 North American Utility Vehicle of the Year" Runner Up [61]
  • MotorWeek "Best of the Year 2019"[62]
  • "Best Executive UK Car of the Year 2019"[63]
  • CarBuyer "Safest Cars to Buy 2019"[64]
  • "Canada Utility Vehicle of the Year 2019"[65]
  • Overall Winner - 2019 "World Car of the Year", "World Green Car of the Year", "World Car Design of the Year" [66][67]
  • AutoWeek Magazine "2019 Quietest Cars on Sale" [68]
  • "2019 UK Car of the Year - Overall Winner"[69]
  • "Canada Green Utility Vehicle of the Year 2019"[70]
  • Best EV - Business Motoring Awards 2019[71]
  • AutoBest's "ECOBEST" Award 2018 [72]
  • AutoTrader - Best New Cars for 2019[73]
An electric car made in the UK?
No thanks.

Come on man Lucas has not been involved in limey cars for a long time.

I am sure they have done away with the positive ground nonsense years ago.

On to the Tesla thing. They are gonna get clobbered by bigger car companies once they start to come into the marketplace.

They are on borrowed time. The auto industry knows a hell of a lot more about the auto industry than Tesla and none are run by an egomaniac that has to be in the press.

With that all said I really don't think the electric cars are the only answer.

They are filthy things. Cobalt for the batteries is mined by children in the Congo. MINED by KIDS! If you want to save the world start with them. If your electric car is being charged by a coal burning plant are you really saving the world?

Everyone let's not forget the auto industry was making great strides in mpg and being cleaner.

In fact Mazda has a great new engine that is super efficient and clean.

It is the holy Grail of gas engines. It fires from from squeeze like a diesel. It is about a clean burn.

They in fact are working on getting the thermal efficiency to that of a electric car charged on a natural gas plant

With that all said I really don't think the electric cars are the only answer.

They are filthy things. Cobalt for the batteries is mined by children in the Congo. MINED by KIDS! If you want to save the world start with them. If your electric car is being charged by a coal burning plant are you really saving the world?

This is definitely part of the EV discussion. Cobalt sourcing is troubling. Battery disposal is another nasty business.

I think the carbon emissions comparisons have been done when it comes to total energy involved and the EVs still come out a little better on a per mile basis than gas power, even on coal-burning plants. And obviously it gets significantly better when you start talking about nuclear and renewable power.

It’s called “well to wheel” emissions - recognizing that you have to account for EV power creation. The government studies that have looked to compare them have concluded that even when you include the energy consumption involved in creating the battery, the total emissions that can be accounted to the EV is still meaningfully lower than with gasoline cars, on average, and as the share of total US power produced with gas and green plants grows every year - a trend that further reduces total emissions for the EV. Of course mpg gains on the gas side also have a positive trend.

I think the range remains a problem for many people. Daily driving is great but many people have access to only one car but do, from time to time, need to go more than 250 miles in a day. Even if it’s just a handful of times a year, it seems that the sort of interstate off-ramp refueling stations aren’t common at all - and recharge times can still be lengthy.

Western auto makers are marketing to the largest market on the planet, China. 25million cars are produced in China annually. How many are hybrids or electric? Less than 1% US and Euopean electric sales are but a drop in the ocean. Until you flip that economy then its really the law of diminishing returns. China and India must get on board or any carbon gains made in the West get washed out two or three times over.
We are killing ourselves and this planet by feeding that economy.

What I absolutely love about that graph is they are talking about mpg in a 25k dollar car compared to what your 75k+ car would cost to drive from NY and it only has range to get to new Jersey.

Even if you did stop and charge it it would be faster to take a friggin train.

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