The journey of Chris Ivory: Dismissed, discarded and, finally, celebrated (3 Viewers)

[HobBeh]

It is part of the system. You know how those rushing yards were accrued? When we pass our *** off to get up 21 points. Then, we ran the ball for another 21 points. We run the ball exceptionally well when beat the brakes off of teams with our passing game. Wake up...

What's wrong with that?
edit: nm, saw the context

 

[Taker597]

Right. It's part of the system. Pass to set up our mediocre rushing game that eclipsed 2k yards in both '09 and '11. Everyone knows you have to be a run first offense to be considered anything better than mediocre. Your logic is sound. (that's sarcasm.)

Go back to sleep...

2 Years out of 9. Two exceptional years in between some really bad and average years.

So, it's a coincidence that years we have HOF team with one of the most lethal passing attack in the history of the NFL. where defenses spent more time worried about having 9 players in coverage vs. Have 9 in the box. We never was a run first offense. Not in 2009 or 2011. We just had two good years.

If you want to be better than mediocre. Then, you have to be consistently good. Not just two years where we field two of the greatest passing offenses of all time.


/betterlogic

 

[kcirdor]

2 Years out of 9. Two exceptional years in between some really bad and average years.

So, it's a coincidence that years we have HOF team with one of the most lethal passing attack in the history of the NFL. where defenses spent more time worried about having 9 players in coverage vs. Have 9 in the box. We never was a run first offense. Not in 2009 or 2011. We just had two good years.

If you want to be better than mediocre. Then, you have to be consistently good. Not just two years where we field two of the greatest passing offenses of all time.


/betterlogic

We have fielded more than 2 years with the greatest passing offense of all time. We won the seasons we stayed balanced. We lost when we abandoned the run.

 

[xkeith031x]

Ivory was by far my first choice always on a short yardage situation where we needed to bulldoze the line for yards. Wish he was still around.

 

[mither_rome]

2 Years out of 9. Two exceptional years in between some really bad and average years.

So, it's a coincidence that years we have HOF team with one of the most lethal passing attack in the history of the NFL. where defenses spent more time worried about having 9 players in coverage vs. Have 9 in the box. We never was a run first offense. Not in 2009 or 2011. We just had two good years.

If you want to be better than mediocre. Then, you have to be consistently good. Not just two years where we field two of the greatest passing offenses of all time.


/betterlogic

Huh? So by your "better logic," even though the saints had the 6th best rushing attack in '09 and '11, we will ALWAYS have a mediocre running game because we haven't done it consistently enough - for you? Pardon me, but wth does 2012 have to do with 2009. Or 2014 with 2011? No one get's a trophy for being the best team over a 10 year period. It's one season at a time.

We had an excellent running game in at least 2 seasons under Payton. So, your original premise that I proposed was absolute nonsense... what was it? - oh yeah:

We'll always post mediocre rushing stats.

.. you've already conceded and qualified.

And from someone who actually took the time to analyze "the system," and in response to your earlier point:

This is not accurate.

 

[porculator]

Always enjoyed watching his dreds pop when he would slam into the d-line head on

 

[Taker597]

We have fielded more than 2 years with the greatest passing offense of all time. We won the seasons we stayed balanced. We lost when we abandoned the run.

You play to your strength. Averaging 2.5 ypc is not a strength. There is no short term remedy for a bad running game unless we have a mismatch against an opponent to were running is efficient and beneficial. We can force the run, but we aren't fooling anyone. If you're not great at rushing the ball. Why shoot yourself in the foot? Make your short passing game your running game. Create space and mismatches. We do that a lot. Hell, we been leading RB reception and reception yards for years.

It's probably why we force so many screen. Try to nail on a mismatch in space and our Running back getting some yardage. But we aren't living the days of when we can kill teams with a 40yrd Pierre Thomas screen. Team know it. We can luckily get to the LOS on screens nowadays.

When we are balance. It is basically we was able to efficiently run and pass the ball at will. When our passing attack was at our most potent and rushing attack is stable enough to stand up on its own in blocking, play design, and rusher. Would our running game be even as close to efficient in 2009 or 2011 if our passing game wasn't at its best?

We are a passing team. It elevated our running game to ridiculous efficiency that we can't replicate. If we had the same passing attack as we did then with pro-bowl talented oline of 2009. We would replicate those numbers. Our talent in our passing game diminished and our oline deteriorated. Makes handling our run game much easier to handle than in 2009 and 2011.

 

[kcirdor]

Have you even looked at the Spread sheet I posted in this thread? I am just curious?

 

[mc4saints]

I show Chris only played 6 games for us in 2011 and a total of 6 in 2012. Is that accurate? Did he miss 10 games a season because of injuries? If so, that is why we took what we could get for him.

 

[CitySaint]

Who did we end up getting with the pick we received in the Ivory trade?

 

[Taker597]

Have you even looked at the Spread sheet I posted in this thread? I am just curious?

Yea... A 60/40 pass rush ratio in 2009.

be nice if that chart had more than just plays. And 2013. Which was our best year. Plus, in comparison to our bad years.

 

[Saints 4 life]

Health. He could never stay healthy and given his history there was no reason to think that would change.

Health. You can say the same about Ingram. Since he's been drafted, he has missed 14 games. Almost an entire season.

We got rid of the wrong back.

 

[TheRealJRad]

Who did we end up getting with the pick we received in the Ivory trade?

Traded to Miami, who picked Dion Sims.

If I'm reading this right, we traded the Ivory pick + another 4th for Miami's 3rd (82), which became John Jenkins.

 

[bclemms]

So, sending decent running backs from a Pass Heavy team to a run heavy team has nothing to do with it?

We'll always post mediocre rushing stats. It has nothing to do with the back. It's the system.

It's not how many yards you rush for, it's how efficiently you run the ball. I'd much rather only have 120 yards a game getting 5 yards per carry than I would 200 yards at 3 yards per carry.

We've elected to go with the least efficient back in the Payton era.

The drafting of Ingram is where so many things went wrong with this team. Imaging if we stayed put, drafted Justin Houston or Richard Sherman. Then in 2012 drafted Bobby Wagner or Alshon Jeffery with the pick we gave up to get Ingram.

Hindsight is 20/20. I thought the Ingram pick was going to pay off. I thought he was better than he is and I was wrong. The difference is the Saints can't seem to admit the mistake and instead sign him to a big contract and insist that he be the feature back in our offense.

We've changed the blocking scheme to fit an average at best RB, changed our game plans to fit Ingram and we've become more predictable on offense because of it and the team has suffered. Now it looks like we'll be parting ways with another back better than Ingram just because the team wont admit Ingram isn't who we thought we were drafting.

The seasons in which Ingram touches the ball the most, we've had our worst seasons. The seasons in which he touches the ball the least we've had our best season. When he's been healthy we've been a .500 team. When he's missed games we've been one of the best teams in the league.

Don't get me wrong the team has had many other problems but this is the one that could have been handled very easily and a long time ago.

It isn't Ingram's fault. The guy comes out and runs hard, he puts in the work in the offseason, he just isn't very good.

 

[kcirdor]

Yea... A 60/40 pass rush ratio in 2009.

be nice if that chart had more than just plays. And 2013. Which was our best year. Plus, in comparison to our bad years.

60/40 on 1st down and 60/40 throughout the first half. But the idea that the pass opened up the run that season is not accurate. It was staying balanced that opened up the entire offense. May I suggest you go ahead and download the data yourself from the source. I downloaded it back in 2011 and the latest data I had at the time was 2010.
http://www.armchairanalysis.com/data.php

You can use the information to prove your point of view or to get a better understanding. Of course if you go into with preconceived ideas you can query anything to prove yourself correct.

Plenty of times during Sean Payton's career he abandoned the run because he got pass happy. He grew predictable with his personnel packages and formations. Had we stayed as balanced as we did in 2009, we wouldn't have had so many mediocre seasons of 7-9.

The Falcons game last week we stayed balanced. We couldn't run the ball to save our lives, but guess what, we stuck with it. It opened up the passing game, the play action actually worked because Payton wasn't as predictable as he has been the last several years. Staying balanced even with an injured and terrible Oline allows the offense to be efficient.