The problem of White Supremacy - Spinoff from Buffalo Shooting thread (1 Viewer)

[DaveXA]

Since the original Buffalo shooting thread has been largely focused on the gun debate/discussion, I feel like there hasn't been enough discussion of the underlying cause in this case. The shooter is 18 years old and apparently was radicalized/indoctrinationated through reading stuff like 4chan and white nationalist sources starting when he was 16. Roughly a quarter of the manifesto he wrote was plagiarized from those sources as well as from previous mass shooters' own manifestos. He views himself as an "eco-fascist, a white supremacist, an antisemite, and a Nazi."

So, while this guy was responsible for the horrific killing of 10 people, it's clear he was influenced by the white nationalist and white supremacist writings available out there. I've personally never read 4chan or any of those writings, so I admit I'm a bit uneducated when it comes to those sources. I have an idea of some of the hatred, grievances and fears of people who read and agree with the stuff, but I don't understand how people come to the conclusion that killing other people is somehow justified.

What can we do as a country and a culture to get away from this culture of violence and hatred? Can the sources of that hatred be stopped?

Speaking for myself as a white man, married to a Korean woman, with 4 adult children, I want to say that the victims of this senseless act didn't deserve to die. I feel awful for their families and wish i could console them. I know there's nothing i can say that will be adequate.

What now? Where do we go from here?

Just a quick thought. I would think to send food and groceries to families in that area because from what I understand the store where the shooting took place is in a "food desert" where people have difficulty accessing typical groceries in their neighborhood aside from that one store which is currently closed due to the shooting. It feels like that could be a first step, by meeting the needs of the neighborhood in the short term.

I hope this sparks some discussion of the root causes of the violence and how we can address it in a meaningful way.

The issue with dismissing this as "crazy" Dave is that it is now common to associate these acts of terrorism, by white supremacists, as "crazy" as a way to diminish this threat as a "one-off." The now popular lone-wolf. These aren't acts of isolation. It's a pattern.

This terrorist and supremacist was no more crazy than Hitler was crazy. They speak with clarity, intent, conviction and confidence. He wasn't insane and what he is indoctrinationated into it and preaching is dangerous. It's not crazy, it's commonplace. Eventually, America will have to own its white supremacy problem. But, trying to pass this off as fringe behavior, or shaming it back to irrelevance, those days are done. It has to be confronted as the mainstream behavior it is. White America doesn't like hearing that but yall don't have to live under its oppression constantly, so tough.

For the record, my friend, I know this isn't your position, and I understand the point you are making. But, as always, if I see an opportunity to give perspective, I will.

That makes sense. I appreciate the perspective as always and value your thoughts.

I guess my tendency is to want the white supremacy worldview to be something that is unacceptable and "crazy" as an apt descriptor. I would say just because it's commonplace doesn't mean it's not crazy. At least that was what I was thinking. It certainly should be dealt with. There certainly is too much of it, particularly in law enforcement.

I do want to be part of the solution to the problem of racism as much as I possibly can, but sometimes I feel like I'm a passenger on this journey.

I gotta be honest, reading some of that manifesto, it just seems way too trolly to me, it's a bit too perfect when you think about the racist, neckbeard, edgelord stereotype who has been on the internet a little too long. If you're going to the /pol/ board on 4chan and taking that as the gospel, to the point you act out in real life based on it, you're so far gone that you haven't even been existing in reality for quite some time. That part of 4chan is littered with trolling, edgelord posting(including racist stuff), conspiracy theories. That board is about 20 years old at this point, going back to like 2003.

The feds monitor those boards, they have for years now. People who used to moderate various boards have confirmed as such.

If you want to do something about it, call it out whenever you see it and ostracize those who espouse the beliefs. Give no quarter to those who even lean that way. Social pressure can work wonders from time to time.

Pretty much. A few of my family members don't like me for that reason, lol. Ultimately, I don't talk with them much these days.

The KKK (the 4chan of 1865) started off as just trolling. Their outfit was literally made to look like a ghost to go scare black people. No lie.

People carry forward things posted on 4chan in real life all the time. It may not result in 10 people dead. It just results in qualified african americans not getting the bank loan they deserve, or job, or money to start a business.

And yet they didn't prevent it despite the offender posting dates, times, and locations.

I mean, the thought did cross my mind that part of the issue is that "some of those that work forces are the same that burn crosses", but I didn't necessarily want to open that can of worms and decided to go with the idea that it's a failure not intentional ignorance.

It may have been reluctance more than anything. With all the pressure put on law enforcement lately, what would have been the blow back if they went in early and ended up in a firefight at the guys house?

I mean, that's their job and it's not really those kinds of things that have lead to law enforcement getting bad publicity lately. It's excessive use of force, biased policing, an us against them attitude toward the public in general, and targeting minorities that has been the issue. And, frankly, the fact that this guy posted what he was doing to do along with when and where, and law enforcement did nothing about it makes it look even more suspect in term so of biased policing and targeting minorities. I doubt many would have an issue if they went in to arrest this guy and it resulted in a firefight after people saw what he posted on 4Chan. These are the things we need Police for and this is clear probably cause with exigent circumstances. Yet, they did nothing either because they somehow did not know about it or because they didn't care.

The problem is people like this animal in Buffalo don’t care. Insurance or confiscation wouldn’t have changed his mind. The guns are secondary imo. We need to figure out people. You can’t legislate evil.

This is what First Time was talking about- the ‘animal’ or live wolf stuff just doesn’t fly
This dude is cultivated and the violent expression of theories held by a significant chunk of the population and broadcast on a major news channel
Trying to discuss him as aberrant from his group ultimately just allows this stuff to continue

I will concede the point in the instance we're talking here, I think the more prevalent issue is why the person decided to kill in the first place and not the method he chose.

I, mean, let's keep it 100. Even this discussion of "gun ownership" and "gun regulation" is disingenuous. We aren't discussing that with integrity. Because we are talking about WHITE gun ownership and regulation of WHITE gun owners. Those are whose rights are being feverishly debated. Not only does America not care about Black gun ownership but, since it's foundation, has codified disarmament of black gun ownership into law. Apple pie.

I'm not trying to be that dude and pupu on the 2nd amendment debate. It's an important one. Most def. But for what happened in Buffalo? If that's the first thing, the predominant thing to be discussed? Even the gun debate suffers from the sickness of white supremacy. How easily he was able to purchase a gun? Troubling. How easily he was indoctrinationated into white supremacy? More so.

And, yes, this isn't fringe. That's the lie we have to stop telling.

While I 100% agree with you, wasn't this already addressed earlier in the thread? I understand more needs to be done to address this but I'm wondering what you're proposing we do here to address the indoctrination issue? How do we get our arms around that discussion? I'm more than willing to have the discussion. I can’t speak for others here though.

The biggest problem on this subject is the lack of respect for life. When life means nothing to someone, killing another person just seems like the best way to go about your business.

Guns do indeed make it easier to end a life, but it won’t stop the attitude of those who choose to kill even if the death is a suicide. However, as many bumper stickers inform us, guns aren’t going away. But neither can we stop some people from wanting to end a life. This simply means that humans can’t fix the problem. Hearts would have to change.

I think the issue is we really aren't discussing it. I started to acknowledge that earlier by saying that they "why" this guy decided to kill is more pressing than "how", but then let myself get distracted again.

While it's more pressing, it's also more difficult to unpack. @First Time Poster makes a good start, but we really aren't picking up with it. Even now, I'm not really sure how to move the discussion forward.

There's a couple of dimensions to the problem, the explicit manifestation of racism and white supremacy with this shooting. And the implicit racism and white supremacy baked into assumptions, laws and cultural norms that have sort of permeated in our society over 300 years.

It's extremely difficult because it's nearly impossible to have a frank discussion about this sort of thing without getting defensive.

That makes sense. I think we have to get over our insecurities and tear the bandaid off. But easier said than done. Maybe a separate thread devoted solely to that could sharpen our focus on that so we aren't distracted with the gun debate? I'm willing to start the thread if that's warranted.

I have to disappear for a bit, but I want to go back to the subject that @First Time Poster brought up.

I sense a tremendous amount of fear, in all communities, including white communities, that they will be hurt in a real ways if they become the minority (or are already a minority). Which to me acknowledges that we don't have strong enough rules, procedures and norms to ensure people are not being influenced by biases. So the solution is to strengthen those things.

it signals a fear of the reverse golden rule - 'they will do unto me, what i did unto them'
and that's telling

 

[brandon8283]

Just asking the question: do you think we can realistically do this thread here?

 

[DaveXA]

Just asking the question: do you think we can realistically do this thread here?

Sure, racism and white supremacy is a cultural problem more than political. We've had more than a few discussions of race in the EE. So with that said, I would just encourage that the dialogue focus more on the social and cultural impacts of white supremacy and what are some practical ways to address the issue. There may be some political ways to address that, but we can suggest that without making it political if you get my meaning. So, I'd say there's room for a discussion of the topic here.

What I don't want to do is ignore the meaningful commentary from First Time Poster, who I feel has made it clear that for him, the bigger issue wasn't the guns used, but rather the problem of white supremacy driving a young man to commit unspeakable acts.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Just asking the question: do you think we can realistically do this thread here?

It certainly will be difficult, but we can try.

 

[0rion]

The #1 problem is sheetty parenting.

 

[DaveXA]

The #1 problem is sheetty parenting.

I definitely think that's a starting point.

 

[Goatman Saint]

Having run into issues before during DACA and such because of my absolute disgust and hatred of anything but absolute equality for everyone, I will leave it at that statement, with the added statement that I hope to god the relatives of those people who are dead and injured sue the **** out of anyone they can. Beck has essentially been taken down by the Sandy Hook parents, and Carl’s son who works at a certain entertainment network named after a small red canine will hopefully be next. Sick and tired of public voices hiding behind free speech and no responsibility.

At this point this country disgusts me. absolutely disgusts me

 

[CapitalCitySaint]

Why are white people - especially white men in this country so afraid of becoming a minority?

Do we treat minorities bad here or something? (that was sarcasm by the way).

 

[Goatman Saint]

Why are white people - especially white men in this country so afraid of becoming a minority?

Do we treat minorities bad here or something? (that was sarcasm by the way).

I’m still mad at the 2016 election. We were promised a taco truck on every corner of Clinton won. Seriously mad at this. It would make my life so much happier. Fresh street tacos not 50 feet away. And some people thought this wasn’t a good idea

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

I have a lot of random thoughts that on the issue that I can't really make into a coherent whole, so I'll just sort of post.

1. On the surface it is very frustrating because people my age and general upbringing (middle class southern educated white family) have mostly been raised to believe that racism is absolutely terrible and a relic of the past. We've been basically been taught that we just need to believe everyone is the same and it will all be ok. And clearly it hasn't worked out that way. So, not only did what we want to believe to be true is in fact not true, but we are also really not equipped to talk about the issue... since collectively we were taught that being racist is terrible and your a terrible person if you're racist, and wait, if in fact racism is baked into everything, does that make us all terrible people? No one wants to believe they're a terrible person.. so whenever the issue comes up we retreat to defensiveness. Basically, we don't even know how to talk about the issue.

2. Lots of things can be true at once, and that can be confusing. You can be white and poor and have disadvantages, and the system can still be set up to favor white people. And that can lead to tons of resentment. If I'm poor, and have poor health care, and tons of debt and poor access to tools to improve my life, it has got to be incredibly frustrating to hear how the system is rigged in their favor and that we need to give more money and advantages to minorities. They might not have anything specifically against minorities, but they sure as heck don't want people to get more help than they are getting when they are struggling. I think a lot of modern day racism and resentment stems from this.

3. Going back to issue one, we've never had an actual discussion on everything that was done to hinder minorities, made a real apology and done anything specifically to redress those wrongs. Those are critical for national healing, but now it has gone on so long without that, that it becomes harder and seems less "just", because the effects are no longer direct, they're in the weeds and pervasive, but not directly obvious.

4. Some of this can be addressed in the near term by creating a more equitable system, where everyone gets similar resources to make their lives better. Black Americans will get more of this help because they are the ones collectively with fewer resources to begin with, but it will also benefit everyone. This means better schools, health care and so on for everyone. Try to actually create equality of opportunity (an impossible goal, but a worthy one).

5. The idea of systemic racism and implict bias seems to be difficult to explain and because of issue 1, I think many people want to ignore.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

Sure, racism and white supremacy is a cultural problem more than political. We've had more than a few discussions of race in the EE. So with that said, I would just encourage that the dialogue focus more on the social and cultural impacts of white supremacy and what are some practical ways to address the issue. There may be some political ways to address that, but we can suggest that without making it political if you get my meaning. So, I'd say there's room for a discussion of the topic here.

I fully respect and appreciate you trying, However, I’d argue that issues of race in America are 100% political now and can’t be discussed outside the body politic.

I sincerely hope I’m wrong.

 

[DaveXA]

Why are white people - especially white men in this country so afraid of becoming a minority?

Do we treat minorities bad here or something? (that was sarcasm by the way).

I do get the insecurity part. I don't know though. I've lived in DC before and I was pretty much the only white guy on the block that I lived at the time. Never had an issue with the neighbors. So, I don't have an issue being in the minority. So I'm not really afraid of it. But I get why some people do. And I guess part of it is they're afraid they'll be treated the way they treated others for...centuries. Well, when you treat others like sheet...what do you expect?

 

[DaveXA]

I’m still mad at the 2016 election. We were promised a taco truck on every corner of Clinton won. Seriously mad at this. It would make my life so much happier. Fresh street tacos not 50 feet away. And some people thought this wasn’t a good idea

I'd be totally down with a on every corner. Would never go hungry.

I'm gonna run for president and that will be the only thing on my platform.

 

[DaveXA]

I have a lot of random thoughts that on the issue that I can't really make into a coherent whole, so I'll just sort of post.

1. On the surface it is very frustrating because people my age and general upbringing (middle class southern educated white family) have mostly been raised to believe that racism is absolutely terrible and a relic of the past. We've been basically been taught that we just need to believe everyone is the same and it will all be ok. And clearly it hasn't worked out that way. So, not only did what we want to believe to be true is in fact not true, but we are also really not equipped to talk about the issue... since collectively we were taught that being racist is terrible and your a terrible person if you're racist, and wait, if in fact racism is baked into everything, does that make us all terrible people? No one wants to believe they're a terrible person.. so whenever the issue comes up we retreat to defensiveness. Basically, we don't even know how to talk about the issue.

2. Lots of things can be true at once, and that can be confusing. You can be white and poor and have disadvantages, and the system can still be set up to favor white people. And that can lead to tons of resentment. If I'm poor, and have poor health care, and tons of debt and poor access to tools to improve my life, it has got to be incredibly frustrating to hear how the system is rigged in their favor and that we need to give more money and advantages to minorities. They might not have anything specifically against minorities, but they sure as heck don't want people to get more help than they are getting when they are struggling. I think a lot of modern day racism and resentment stems from this.

3. Going back to issue one, we've never had an actual discussion on everything that was done to hinder minorities, made a real apology and done anything specifically to redress those wrongs. Those are critical for national healing, but now it has gone on so long without that, that it becomes harder and seems less "just", because the effects are no longer direct, they're in the weeds and pervasive, but not directly obvious.

4. Some of this can be addressed in the near term by creating a more equitable system, where everyone gets similar resources to make their lives better. Black Americans will get more of this help because they are the ones collectively with fewer resources to begin with, but it will also benefit everyone. This means better schools, health care and so on for everyone. Try to actually create equality of opportunity (an impossible goal, but a worthy one).

5. The idea of systemic racism and implict bias seems to be difficult to explain and because of issue 1, I think many people want to ignore.

Excellent post. I can relate to point 1. In a lot of ways, this fits my kids even moreso than me.

Point 2, I've been poor a lot of my life. I've been on welfare, had social security disability income and lived off of food stamps. Some of that could be attributed to my career choice and location, but it was something my wife and I made willingly for a good while. I can see how if someone was white and got grief for white privilege would make them resentful. I get it, but that's a problem of the heart as much as circumstances.

We've touched on point 3 in a couple of other threads not too long ago. But in terms of national discourse, there hasn't been enough done to address this.

Point 4 - agree 100%. Not much I can add there.

Point 5 - See, to me, systemic racism seems pretty obvious. But a lot of white men don't agree with me even with a mountain of evidence, and yeah, it's largely a result of point 1 imo.

 

[DaveXA]

I fully respect and appreciate you trying, However, I’d argue that issues of race in America are 100% political now and can’t be discussed outside the body politic.

I sincerely hope I’m wrong.

I would just say that attitudes and hearts need changing before the political can be meaningfully addressed. Which is why I'm attempting to approach this from a culture/attitude point of view.