The undesirable but most likely reality. (7 Viewers)

[los226]

The reality is this process should’ve started as soon as Brees retired. But Loomis decided to further compound the issue over the last four years because he’s about winning now. I don’t see the process changing anytime soon, but we’ll see.

 

[State Of Affairs]

I agree.
There are only 32 of these positions in the world and only a few become available each year so they can’t be passed on when available even by the “good” coaches.
DA has had zero success as a HC anywhere and shows no promise of future success. Therefore there is no downside of moving on from him.

It’s a craps shoot on any hire.

Also the salary cap is only on the players so no problems there for a coach change.

So, you would want to pick up the 6th (just hypothetical) best option who would inevitably fail because the Saints are and should be in clean up cap mode which means we won’t be signing any difference makers and likely trying to rid ourself of high priced vets either by cut or trade.

In 2 years, the same people will be clamoring for a new coach for all the same reasons ESPECIALLY cuz it won’t be the hot new name that will get hired cuz those guys will be going to teams in better shape.

Again, I’m just thinking this thru and suspecting that this is why the Saints are supporting DA with the “look beyond the results” comments.

 

[State Of Affairs]

I agree with Mickey that we have to look beyond the results. Stats don't always tell the story and neither do records. Take the Lions a few years ago when Dan Campbell was turning around the Lions. They were losing almost every week, but they were very competitive and they were losing late in the 4th quarter (I think one of the games was against the Ravens when Justin Tucker hit a 66 yard FG at the end to win it for them).

With that said, I don't think Mickey is relaying the message he thinks he is. Many of us ARE looking beyond the results/record and it's actually a worse situation. When looking at a coach, I want to see someone who inspires their team, the players play hard, and the coach is in control. I see none of that with DA.

The defense, which is what Allen is known for, has all but folded up its tent and gone home. They have quit. I see very few guys out there playing inspired football. So many on both sides of the ball are just going through the motions. And, then there's the debacle of DA talking to the media about this clusterfu...clusterbomb. I find it dumbfounding that the reason given for the defense's play is they need to get back to fundamentals on tackling. Um, these guys are professionals in a game they have been playing since they were kids, and the fundamentals are taught in pee-wee football.

So, DA is a bad head coach, not a leader, and his bread and butter defense is a sieve. He needs to go.

Yep…. I keep reminding everyone that this isn’t what I want, this is what I’m suspecting is happening.

I think the team WOULD LIKE to keep DA as long as possible even if he’s not the guy just to avoid hiring another bridge coach to continue the tear down clean up then hire another guy to rebuild.

BUT, if his defense continues to fold and people quit coming to games, they won’t have a choice.

 

[zatsnzapps]

Yep…. I keep reminding everyone that this isn’t what I want, this is what I’m suspecting is happening.

I think the team WOULD LIKE to keep DA as long as possible even if he’s not the guy just to avoid hiring another bridge coach to continue the tear down clean up then hire another guy to rebuild.

BUT, if his defense continues to fold and people quit coming to games, they won’t have a choice.

Oh, I agree with you, and I didn't mean to come off as disagreeing with your overall point. I was more explaining that Mickey's point to look beyond the results is horsepucky and actually supports getting rid of DA more than keeping him, which is why my opinion is cemented that he needs to go. I'd ideally like a full reset including new blood in the GM role, but we have to start somewhere.

 

[Saint Jack]

Tear it down, start over now. It’s not like this division has a powerhouse of a team like the chiefs that we will be looking up at for a decade plus. Get ahead of the rebuild now and if we get lucky to find someone to improve us by a few games we are in the mix in the division.

This is why you fire DA now!
What makes the Saints attractive is that there is not a long term franchise QB or powerhouse coach in the South.

 

[muddbug2]

So, you would want to pick up the 6th (just hypothetical) best option who would inevitably fail because the Saints are and should be in clean up cap mode which means we won’t be signing any difference makers and likely trying to rid ourself of high priced vets either by cut or trade.

In 2 years, the same people will be clamoring for a new coach for all the same reasons ESPECIALLY cuz it won’t be the hot new name that will get hired cuz those guys will be going to teams in better shape.

Again, I’m just thinking this thru and suspecting that this is why the Saints are supporting DA with the “look beyond the results” comments.

IMO we have the 32nd best option right now. He has historically terrible results as a HC.

The problem with DA is most fans (and uninterested third parties) don’t see any promise of future success. So imo making a change could result in a staff that is moving the team in the right direction. With the current staff we will continue to get what we’re getting no matter who the players are.

As fans we see huge differences between players while good coaches (not the bottom feeders like the Saints have) see much smaller differences and know how to scheme to strengths of these players.

I didn’t say to not work on the cap issues I only pointed out that coaches and staff don’t affect the cap.

 

[Rouxble]

You have the tear down and clean up before you get to the rebuild. NU pointed out it will take up to 3 years to clean the cap up because we can’t simply cut all the high priced vets, we will have to push money out just to get under the cap, like we do every single season ($80 plus million over next season)

Interesting that this has been the case every season for a few years now (the forced restructuring requirement), and Underhill has been dismissive of criticism of the cap strategy until it’s inevitable result was realized.

Before someone says draft better, literally every team in the league is trying to draft better, having some cap flexibility allows you to fill holes where you may have been unsuccessful in guessing which college players will be NFL starters. Besides that, we’ve had to let many of our “hits” walk, and claims that we could have cleared the space to keep them are false (especially considering Underhill’s pessimism about the cap now without those additional salaries on the books).

 

[El Caliente]

I remember when Sean Payton wasn’t the hottest name on the coaching circuit prior to the Saints hiring him, so Nick can miss me with “we would be hiring a guy who has been passed over for other jobs” (like it’s some bad thing. The hot name during Sean’s hiring cycle was Brad Childress, with Scott Linehan running a close second. Not getting the most popular or hottest name on the market isn’t a bad thing.

Also, this situation isn’t as dire as Nick makes it out to be. There are still a lot of young talented players on this team, and there are still older guys who can still play. Sure we need to shed cap space, but in doing so, we aren’t really losing anyone we can’t afford to lose. What, are we going to miss older guys who are losing a step? Will we be missing guys who are perennially on the injury report?

All that to say, we suck, injuries suck, but coaching matters. This coaching staff has made the problem look worse than it is. Competent coaching goes a long way, and can change Ls to Ws.

At the end of the day newspapers don’t write stories about houses that don’t burn down, because nobody cares.

 

[Hedon James]

I agree with Mickey that we have to look beyond the results. Stats don't always tell the story and neither do records. Take the Lions a few years ago when Dan Campbell was turning around the Lions. They were losing almost every week, but they were very competitive and they were losing late in the 4th quarter (I think one of the games was against the Ravens when Justin Tucker hit a 66 yard FG at the end to win it for them).

With that said, I don't think Mickey is relaying the message he thinks he is. Many of us ARE looking beyond the results/record and it's actually a worse situation. When looking at a coach, I want to see someone who inspires their team, the players play hard, and the coach is in control. I see none of that with DA.

The defense, which is what Allen is known for, has all but folded up its tent and gone home. They have quit. I see very few guys out there playing inspired football. So many on both sides of the ball are just going through the motions. And, then there's the debacle of DA talking to the media about this clusterfu...clusterbomb. I find it dumbfounding that the reason given for the defense's play is they need to get back to fundamentals on tackling. Um, these guys are professionals in a game they have been playing since they were kids, and the fundamentals are taught in pee-wee football.

So, DA is a bad head coach, not a leader, and his bread and butter defense is a sieve. He needs to go.

BULLSEYE! NAILED it!

And I hear the argument(s) to NOT fire a coach mid-season, as it likely won't solve anything. I hear you, and I understand your logic. Now hear this....KEEPING him for the remainder of the season solves nothing either. I want to "stop the bleeding"....cauterize the wound. Dismissing him...ASAP....sends a message to the players that the current results are unacceptable and the train is moving forward, for better or worse. Get on board, or the next change may be YOU. Keeping DA for the remainder of the season sends a message of tolerance (not always a bad thing) and complacency. There's the problem...complacency...how do you hold someone else accountable and ask them to do more when you haven't required more of yourself? (I'm looking at Loomis here)

I've been a fan since the USFL folded and my favorite coach (Mora) and my favorite players (Mills and Vaughn) all converged in New Orleans. I've seen this movie before....several times....different actors, but same script.

The only thing I would add, is that the GM MUST GO!!! When the GM helps to create a problem that cannot be resolved in a timely manner, the GM needs to be held responsible for his role in that also. Focus on the coach, and maybe the coaching issue gets resolved, but we still have a GM problem, IMO. Focus on the GM, and maybe the GM AND coaching issues get resolved simultaneously. Loomis needs to be held accountable for his role in this clusterfu....clusterbomb. Put the HEAT on Loomis...

 

[Saint Jack]

I remember when Sean Payton wasn’t the hottest name on the coaching circuit prior to the Saints hiring him, so Nick can miss me with “we would be hiring a guy who has been passed over for other jobs” (like it’s some bad thing. The hot name during Sean’s hiring cycle was Brad Childress, with Scott Linehan running a close second.

The situation isn’t as dire as Nick makes it out to be. There is still a lot of young talent on this team, and there are still older guys who can still play. Injuries suck, but coaching matters. This coaching staff has made the problem look worse than it is.

At the end of the day newspapers don’t write stories about houses that don’t burn down, because nobody cares.

Some reporter said one time that really stuck with me.
“We make the most money when the team is really good or really bad.”

 

[St. Widge]

This is true but you want the one that has the most proven track record, not the 6th option.

But yea, you’re right when you say you don’t know. It’s like the draft.

You want the one with the proven track record, but they don't always turn out to be the best head coach. Payton wasn't the top choice for teams when we got him. Campbell wasn't the hot HC candidate when the Lions got him. And there are many other examples of that. So, the fact that you can't get your first or even second option is no reason to stick with what you have when it isn't working.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

BULLSEYE! NAILED it!

And I hear the argument(s) to NOT fire a coach mid-season, as it likely won't solve anything. I hear you, and I understand your logic. Now hear this....KEEPING him for the remainder of the season solves nothing either. I want to "stop the bleeding"....cauterize the wound. Dismissing him...ASAP....sends a message to the players that the current results are unacceptable and the train is moving forward, for better or worse. Get on board, or the next change may be YOU. Keeping DA for the remainder of the season sends a message of tolerance (not always a bad thing) and complacency. There's the problem...complacency...how do you hold someone else accountable and ask them to do more when you haven't required more of yourself? (I'm looking at Loomis here)

I've been a fan since the USFL folded and my favorite coach (Mora) and my favorite players (Mills and Vaughn) all converged in New Orleans. I've seen this movie before....several times....different actors, but same script.

The only thing I would add, is that the GM MUST GO!!! When the GM helps to create a problem that cannot be resolved in a timely manner, the GM needs to be held responsible for his role in that also. Focus on the coach, and maybe the coaching issue gets resolved, but we still have a GM problem, IMO. Focus on the GM, and maybe the GM AND coaching issues get resolved simultaneously. Loomis needs to be held accountable for his role in this clusterfu....clusterbomb. Put the HEAT on Loomis...

The only reason I’m against firing Allen now is because it looks reactionary. We’ve already seen a former coaches response to Woody Allen firing Selah and I’m sure that sentiment is shared.

Nah, let the ship keep seeking. It’ll just reaffirm it’s the right decision, and you’ll have to do nothing to justify it.

Currently Allen s having to make secondary moves to prove firing Saleh was correct decision, and if the team is still trash after the move then it’ll fall on him for being gung ho. Now who wants to work for a guy like that?

I’m over Allen as well, and firing him right now would arguably be the right thing, but not the best thing

 

[Twags14]

I listened to Underhill’s pod on Saturday and I think the biggest point he made was the one that gets brushed under the rug.

The casual fan want DA to be fired to punish him as the singular scapegoat for all the Saints problems.

I’m in no way endorsing DA, and I I know NO ONE wants to hear what Mickey said (look beyond the results) but I’m looking at it from a business perspective.

It’s not DA’s fault the cap is in shambles (and it is), it’s not DAs fault that his highest priced players are mostly ineffective, aging vets because we are forced to push salary out and only a small part (I’m sure he had input but no real control) of the draft failures are his fault.

What I’m setting up to say is a new coach won’t change much and a good coach won’t take this job.

You have the tear down and clean up before you get to the rebuild. NU pointed out it will take up to 3 years to clean the cap up because we can’t simply cut all the high priced vets, we will have to push money out just to get under the cap, like we do every single season ($80 plus million over next season)

My point is, I’m deducting that they would be fine keeping DA as long as they can to continue the tear down/clean up portion to make this a desirable job before bringing in a top coaching prospect.

DA could be put in the best spot and still could not succeed as a head coach. He's not that guy.

When Dan Campbell went 3-13 in his first year and 9-8 in his 2nd year, no one was saying The Lion's needed to let him go. Dan put his heart and soul into that team and you could see the pressers. He was dealing with a poor roster and other issues. but after 2 years he cleaned it up and now the Lions are a competitive football team.

This is DAs 3rd year with the Saints as HC and we were given the words that it was a "turnkey" team and he would keep it running. He has destroyed it. Outside salary cap issues, this man just cannot HC. He has no control over the team, terrible time management and use of challenges. I literally cannot stand to watch the games anymore; it is painful.

 

[SAINT BIGAL]

BULLSEYE! NAILED it!

And I hear the argument(s) to NOT fire a coach mid-season, as it likely won't solve anything. I hear you, and I understand your logic. Now hear this....KEEPING him for the remainder of the season solves nothing either. I want to "stop the bleeding"....cauterize the wound. Dismissing him...ASAP....sends a message to the players that the current results are unacceptable and the train is moving forward, for better or worse. Get on board, or the next change may be YOU. Keeping DA for the remainder of the season sends a message of tolerance (not always a bad thing) and complacency. There's the problem...complacency...how do you hold someone else accountable and ask them to do more when you haven't required more of yourself? (I'm looking at Loomis here)

I've been a fan since the USFL folded and my favorite coach (Mora) and my favorite players (Mills and Vaughn) all converged in New Orleans. I've seen this movie before....several times....different actors, but same script.

The only thing I would add, is that the GM MUST GO!!! When the GM helps to create a problem that cannot be resolved in a timely manner, the GM needs to be held responsible for his role in that also. Focus on the coach, and maybe the coaching issue gets resolved, but we still have a GM problem, IMO. Focus on the GM, and maybe the GM AND coaching issues get resolved simultaneously. Loomis needs to be held accountable for his role in this clusterfu....clusterbomb. Put the HEAT on Loomis...

Who’s going to put the heat on Loomis? He’s a “made man” and isn’t going anywhere unless he decides to step back.
Loomis is wasting time and resources trying to prove he’s responsible for a winning franchise. Loomis is a numbers guy, not a talent evaluator. It’s all about pride and ego in the front office.

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

I agree that's the way forward...now the consequence:

Fan enthusiasm dies...ST sales plummet Gayle passes, team sells, team moves