Titanic submersible es morte (3 Viewers)

[Saintman2884]

I was going to post something to this effect.

To anyone who has had the lives and safety of others in their hands when they are planning stuff, the phrase “I think” is a non-starter. You know. And recheck twice. And have emergency plans for every possible contingency. And do if for 10 years before you are able to make a decision without someone approving it.

Seriously, I would kick a guy off my construction site saying sheet like that, let alone 3 miles below the ocean surface.

Rigorous safety rules are a must and a basic necessity against radh, idiotic,.highly risk-verse, careless fools like this Titan submersible Ocean gate CEO, but unfortunately, even the most.stringent, rigidly followed rules don't prevent or can't cover all the bases for severe,.dangerous industrial-scale or construction-area jobs. Often, you have companies who follow the strict OSHA regulations to the law and bad, terrible accidents occur where someone or a group of people still get injured, paralyzed, or killed.

There are a few high-level industrial jobs where the high-level intensity, severity or the fact workers are in close proximity to chemicals or hazardous materials where even seemingly innocolous, minor accidents made by low-to-mid level staff can lead to.disasastrous, tragic outcomes and a NTSB investigation finds out that it wasnt necessarily companies or CEO's cutting corners when it came to safety regulations, it was unfortunate, bad sheetty luck that largely can't always be prevented because it owes to human error. Or a worker/employee got confused and made a fateful, terrible decision in the moment.

I realize the above-scenarios I'm describing hardly apply here but I remember when the Sunset Limited passenger train went off the tails and crashed near the Mobile Sound close to 30 years ago in September 1993, killing over 60-70 passengers. The accident itself wasnt due to company not following safety regulations, but a tugboat captain who was unlicensed, and handed over control to a subordinate who got lost in the muggy, foggy conditions usually seen in the Bayou Canot, and lost his beerings, and tugboat hit the railway tresel off-line, and that led thr Sunset Limit went off the rails.

 

[Buickman]

As a retired submariner, there's no way I would've stepped foot in that thing.

 

[TheRealJRad]

There's one that also has Everest and it's just. Wowza.

 

[bclemms]

In the CBS piece, it showed the reporter going through the lengthy release of liability - those things are fairly ironclad on even more mundane applications, there’s no way there’s going to be a finding that the company owed them any standard of care on an experimental vessel going 4000 meters under the sea that wasn’t fully released based on known and acknowledged risk.

And what would be the point? They’re all rich as sheet. Punishment? Seems totally misplaced if they were to try.

My understanding from past experiences in storm chasing is the release of liability doesn't cover negligence. So if they knew something was wrong with the vessel, ignored it and the negligent action resulted in the catastrophe then the negligent action would not be covered by a hold harmless agreement.

So if I took a group storm chasing and had them all sign a hold harmless and we got hit by a tornado then that risk was accepted as part of chasing tornadoes. If I were to drink a 1/5 of vodka and drive us head on into a semi then that risk was not assumed as part of chasing tornadoes therefore I would still be liable.

For a less obvious case, if I was chasing the tornado with a vehicle while I knowingly had a bad tire and did not get it replaced then it could open up some liability. For example, while chasing the tornado the tire blows, vehicle gets disabled and the tornado hits us, I would be liable because if the tire did not blow out then we wouldn't have been hit by the tornado. It was the neglect of the proper equipment on the vehicle that directly led to the incident that otherwise would have been avoided.

So yeah, if the company wasn't negligent then good luck signing a release of liability and then demanding liability for the terms specifically on that release.

 

[TheRealJRad]

Oh I was thinking of the Mariana Trench, my bad. But here it is anyway

 

[davy17c]

Would you pay 250K ?

Turns out that price was just for a single and not a return.

 

[Saintman2884]

"The greatest trick the rich have ever pulled of in the US is convincing poor people it's their own fault they're poor" Slaughterhouse 5, Kurt Vonnegut

I'll add that the rich also pull off the trick of convincing the poor that it's not the fault of the rich when the rich fail. How slick is that? "It's your own fault you're poor, but when I make bad choices and become poor it's not my fault and you need to bail me out" This occurs by nothing more than having the good luck to be born into a rich family or the bad luck to be born into a poor family since economic mobility in the USA is at an all-time low.

Well, a lot of celebrities as well as honest, hard-working Americans lost millions or their savings due to putting money into what was assumed to be a solid, reliable stocks and investment Wall St. firm run by Bernie Madoff, who until December 2008, had a unimpeachable reputation among colleagues, and co-workers but very few knew his deadly, evil secret: it was the largest, costliest most elaborate Ponzi scheme ever and none of Madoff's clients, certainly not his celebrity investors(which included a Holocaust survivor and Nazi hunter) were aware they were losing everything. Often, there are many people/families who lose large amounts of money owing to events or crises they didnt cause: J. Paul Getty III's 1973 kidnapping, arguably Patty Hearst's kidnapping and alleged brain-washing by a radical, far-left underground political group, etc.

Sometimes, very rich people lost their fortunes or millions because they put their faith, temporarily, in the wrong people who seem to have good credentials or are competent in their skill set but fail or can't prevent a catastrophe from occuring because they lose control of all the variables involved in investments or there's too many unknown variables facing him he can't manage.

This isn't just some black-and-white class conflict/consciousness struggle narrative writers from Kurt Vonnegut's generation liked to conveniently boil it down to, life and the world we live have always been more complex, nuanced, and difficult to comprehend.

 

[SWJJ]

Well, a lot of celebrities as well as honest, hard-working Americans lost millions or their savings due to putting money into what was assumed to be a solid, reliable stocks and investment Wall St. firm run by Bernie Madoff, who until December 2008, had a unimpeachable reputation among colleagues, and co-workers but very few knew his deadly, evil secret: it was the largest, costliest most elaborate Ponzi scheme ever and none of Madoff's clients, certainly not his celebrity investors(which included a Holocaust survivor and Nazi hunter) were aware they were losing everything. Often, there are many people/families who lose large amounts of money owing to events or crises they didnt cause: J. Paul Getty III's 1973 kidnapping, arguably Patty Hearst's kidnapping and alleged brain-washing by a radical, far-left underground political group, etc.

Sometimes, very rich people lost their fortunes or millions because they put their faith, temporarily, in the wrong people who seem to have good credentials or are competent in their skill set but fail or can't prevent a catastrophe from occuring because they lose control of all the variables involved in investments or there's too many unknown variables facing him he can't manage.

This isn't just some black-and-white class conflict/consciousness struggle narrative writers from Kurt Vonnegut's generation liked to conveniently boil it down to, life and the world we live have always been more complex, nuanced, and difficult to comprehend.

 

[CoolBrees]

I think it is possible to feel terrible for the victims and at the same time point a finger at the company in charge.

Even with risks and waivers, there has got to be some level of belief that they have gone to all the reasonable lengths necessary to keep you safe.

If what has been reported is true, they were begging to get people killed. Cutting corners and scoffing at safety regs isn’t bravery in the face of the unknown.

It’s reckless and stupid.

About 20 years ago outside of Denver a section of overpass failed and an I-beam came down and killed poeple instantly on I-70 below. The Engineer of Record went to jail once it was determined he made a gross miscalculation. This was a horrible but honest mistake.

The CEO on tv basically saying: “safety protocols? we don’t need no stinking safety protocols” is just astounding.

Everything comes with a safety factor built in. EE’s design electrical panels to 125%. structures are done the same way. Always rounding up, always assuming the worst - literally. You have to design roofs and drainage for a 40 or 100 year event depending on the JHA. If their site glass was rated for 1500 meters, that would have a safety buffer to go to 2500 maybe even 3000 meters before failure under normal circumstances. But 4000 meters is clearly past any safety buffer built in. Egregiously so. Implosion was almost a guarantee if those ratings are accurate.

But even if they didn’t implode, they would have more than likely died still with any slight error.

Not having a manner for escape from the inside of an air tight space is equally dumb. There are compression fittings that withstand this type of pressure all of the time. The release carriage bolts on the inside would take hours to loosen, but they could escape. The worst part, they had not even accounted for a situation where they surfaced and could not be located. This is low hanging fruit. Communication is the top three safety checks.

Not having multiple types of communication methods, despite their depth continues the list of completely egregious safety violations that a normal customer would expect - especially for $250k. A effing magnetized buoy with a homing beacon could be affixed. Removing the current from the magnetic strip on the vessel would release the buoy and start the beacon.

I know jack sheet about boats and the ocean. But I have had to create recovery plans for confined space entry, where the atmosphere is deadly. These plans are so scrutinized and rehearsed you almost feel it is overkill - until this stuff happens and reminds you why we go through it.

Yes the passengers signed a release, but I bet they didn’t know any of the egregious safety violations or the cavalier attitude towards their safety.

I mean, if they said to you:
“so this thing is great; we’re gonna take you down to 4000 meters to look at the ship but stay back from the site glass because it’s only rated to 1500 meters - it might crack. I am sure it will be fine though. And if you want to steer? No problem! Your controller for your Xbox is the same as this (after market of course). How do you get out of the capsule if separated and comm is down? Good question! We’re gonna add that to the To-do list for next time.”

I think most of us would wait until they worked the bugs out.

 

[Saintman2884]

The man or character in Vonnegut's novel spouting off Marxist-styled class-warfare rhetoric is hardly some moral/ethical person himself considering he's a traitor, a sellout, and bearing his soul and justifying his decisions to do so to a cause, regime, that did unspeakable, horrendous things to Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies, Soviet, Allied POWs, ordinary German political dissidents who were taken into "protective custody", Poles, Czechs, anyone who opposed or spoke out against Nazis grand Volkstaat, or VolksGemenieShaat, " people's ethnic community" or opposed the concentration camps, overcrowded, squalid disease-riden Polish ghettos, or the death camps laid out in perfect, meticulous, bureaucratic order and planning after the Wannasee Conference.

If he was going to truly sellout or betray his country with those kinds of sentiments, it would made a lot more sense to defect to the Soviet Union before and after WWII.

 

[Boy_of_wonder75]

The man or character in Vonnegut's novel spouting off Marxist-styled class-warfare rhetoric is hardly some moral/ethical person himself considering he's a traitor, a sellout, and bearing his soul and justifying his decisions to do so to a cause, regime, that did unspeakable, horrendous things to Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies, Soviet, Allied POWs, ordinary German political dissidents who were taken into "protective custody", Poles, Czechs, anyone who opposed or spoke out against Nazis grand Volkstaat, or VolksGemenieShaat, " people's ethnic community" or opposed the concentration camps, overcrowded, squalid disease-riden Polish ghettos, or the death camps laid out in perfect, meticulous, bureaucratic order and planning after the Wannasee Conference.

If he was going to truly sellout or betray his country with those kinds of sentiments, it would made a lot more sense to defect to the Soviet Union before and after WWII.

Which novel of his are you referencing? Please be specific.

 

[efil4stnias]

Well, a lot of celebrities as well as honest, hard-working Americans lost millions or their savings due to putting money into what was assumed to be a solid, reliable stocks and investment Wall St. firm run by Bernie Madoff, who until December 2008, had a unimpeachable reputation among colleagues, and co-workers but very few knew his deadly, evil secret: it was the largest, costliest most elaborate Ponzi scheme ever and none of Madoff's clients, certainly not his celebrity investors(which included a Holocaust survivor and Nazi hunter) were aware they were losing everything. Often, there are many people/families who lose large amounts of money owing to events or crises they didnt cause: J. Paul Getty III's 1973 kidnapping, arguably Patty Hearst's kidnapping and alleged brain-washing by a radical, far-left underground political group, etc.

Sometimes, very rich people lost their fortunes or millions because they put their faith, temporarily, in the wrong people who seem to have good credentials or are competent in their skill set but fail or can't prevent a catastrophe from occuring because they lose control of all the variables involved in investments or there's too many unknown variables facing him he can't manage.

This isn't just some black-and-white class conflict/consciousness struggle narrative writers from Kurt Vonnegut's generation liked to conveniently boil it down to, life and the world we live have always been more complex, nuanced, and difficult to comprehend.

what does this have to do with OceanGate? Its the opposite- Madoff made SURE there were no loose threads that could unravel the whole thing whereas Oceangate CEO publicly said " safety measures be damned "

Not the same at all.

What IS the same? Greed. Rich, but want to be even richer. In this case, wanting the vanity of being able to say you were one of a handful to set eyes on the Titanic while 10 ft from the wreck in a submersible.

Its black n white, but some think it HAS to be more complicated than basic instincts.

 

[Complex Kid]

The man or character in Vonnegut's novel spouting off Marxist-styled class-warfare rhetoric is hardly some moral/ethical person himself considering he's a traitor, a sellout, and bearing his soul and justifying his decisions to do so to a cause, regime, that did unspeakable, horrendous things to Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies, Soviet, Allied POWs, ordinary German political dissidents who were taken into "protective custody", Poles, Czechs, anyone who opposed or spoke out against Nazis grand Volkstaat, or VolksGemenieShaat, " people's ethnic community" or opposed the concentration camps, overcrowded, squalid disease-riden Polish ghettos, or the death camps laid out in perfect, meticulous, bureaucratic order and planning after the Wannasee Conference.

If he was going to truly sellout or betray his country with those kinds of sentiments, it would made a lot more sense to defect to the Soviet Union before and after WWII.

 

[Saintman2884]

what does this have to do with OceanGate? Its the opposite- Madoff made SURE there were no loose threads that could unravel the whole thing whereas Oceangate CEO publicly said " safety measures be damned "

Not the same at all.

What IS the same? Greed. Rich, but want to be even richer. In this case, wanting the vanity of being able to say you were one of a handful to set eyes on the Titanic while 10 ft from the wreck in a submersible.

Its black n white, but some think it HAS to be more complicated than basic instincts.

I'm talking about Madoff's victims who thpught

what does this have to do with OceanGate? Its the opposite- Madoff made SURE there were no loose threads that could unravel the whole thing whereas Oceangate CEO publicly said " safety measures be damned "

Not the same at all.

What IS the same? Greed. Rich, but want to be even richer. In this case, wanting the vanity of being able to say you were one of a handful to set eyes on the Titanic while 10 ft from the wreck in a submersible.

It’s black n white, but some think it HAS to be more complicated than basic instincts.

Dont twist my original words around. A lot of those people who lost their fortunes with Madoff didn’t deserve to lose their money like that, many of his investors weren’t multimillionaire celebrities, either, they got taken in by a crook who unfortunately had a sterling reputation whose true nature wasn’t revealed until the economy collapsed in December 2008. No, it isn’t always black-and-white in situations like these where every rich person who loses their fortunes or lives because they’re greedy.

That’s a misguided, illogical, irrational, frankly bitter perspective I’ve never understood.

 

[Saintman2884]

Uh yeah sure, the character in Vonnegut’s novel bearing his soul and his reasons for betraying his country during WWII using Marxist class rhetoric to a morally horrendous regime that actually despised and hated Marxism.

He’s hardly some honorable person to be quoting anything meaningful from a deep moral/ethical perspective. To the Nazis? Yeah sure, whatever.