WR depth could still be a concern (5 Viewers)

[St. Widge]

I would like to see Tipton returning punts. Give him some experience. Get him involved. Take away the extra hits on Shaheed.

Has Tipton ever returned punts? I looked at his college stats and I didn't see any stats for punt or kick returns. I think he would be a very good returner, but the first question is can he consistently catch punts? Not all players can and you can't put a player back there if there is any chance he is going to muff the punt. I'm assuming there is a reason that Wilson was working as the #2 punt returner, and it can't be his return ability. My bet is that Tipton may not be fully comfortable catching punts. He can learn, but since I don't think he did it in college it may take him some time before they can put him in a game to return punts. Especially considering that he missed so much training camp.

 

[meily]

Yup, that is kind of related to my question for TCUDan.....it would be nice but unlikely if Shaheed and Olave are available for every game....at some point would really like to have Perry, Tipton or Means to get some meaningful touches....I particularly like Perry because he has already flashed and he is a big bodied WR.....but Tipton could turn out to be really good also....this is a good problem to have IMO and we don't need another veteran WR IMO....


Agree with this, at this point, Shaheed is to valuable to return punts....

I think we have to remember this is not CSP offense so we will not see the rotating of the personnel groups like under CSP. I think that is why we see so much of Olave and Shaheed in the game and some of us wonder whats going on with Perry, Wilson, Means and Tipton and its not anything other than the starters are the starters and the backups are the backups outside of the #3 guy.

We (I know I did) complain about the constant exiting and entering of players and how nobody was fooled by that when they know its a run play with Olave comes out and X player comes in.

 

[sfidc3]

I think we have to remember this is not CSP offense so we will not see the rotating of the personnel groups like under CSP. I think that is why we see so much of Olave and Shaheed in the game and some of us wonder whats going on with Perry, Wilson, Means and Tipton and its not anything other than the starters are the starters and the backups are the backups outside of the #3 guy.

We (I know I did) complain about the constant exiting and entering of players and how nobody was fooled by that when they know its a run play with Olave comes out and X player comes in.

I totally get that.....

What I'm alluding to is availability (it is likely that Olave and/or Shaheed will miss some games due to injury) and the value of getting the backups involved in the offense at some point.....

It's very early yet, but I'm interested to see how Kubiak works them in.....

 

[BreesusSaves]

I totally get that.....

What I'm alluding to is availability (it is likely that Olave and/or Shaheed will miss some games due to injury) and the value of getting the backups involved in the offense at some point.....

It's very early yet, but I'm interested to see how Kubiak works them in.....

I've been studying the Saints offense and 2 games is far too small of a sample size, but so far it is clear their goal is for Tipton to be their #3 guy. Shaheed and Olave are both 4.3 guys. Shaheed feels like a 4.0 guy to be honest. Tipton is another 4.3 guy.

With how Kubiak is putting his receivers in motion, they must be fast in order to be a genuine threat for reverses, pitches, and even having the ball snapped directly to them while they're in motion. They must be willing to block. Every receiver on the team has shown they give 100% blocking, but how many have the speed to actually be a threat to win the race to the edge? Kubiak has only had them "handoff" to a Wide Receiver four times, three to Shaheed and once to Olave, genuine threats to outflank the fastest defenses.

Saints WRs:
Rasheed Shaheed - can't find anything "official" but we know he's freaking fast.
Chris Olave - 4.26s readjusted to 4.39s 40 (wtf?).
Mason Tipton - 4.34s 40.
AT Perry - 4.47s 40.
Bub Means - 4.49s 40.
Cedrick Wilson - 4.55s 40.

If you replace Olave or Shaheed with anyone other than Tipton on the roster, it is an obvious loss of speed and versatility.

Perry, Means, and Wilson feel like guys who at this point are coming in purely for relief or if Kubiak is forced to go pass heavy.

I think the real concern is Running Back. No one on the team is even remotely close to Kamara and the only back who might be half as versatile as Kamara is on IR.

 

[Stinkers]

Hunter Renfrow is still out there... but we haven't been running many 3 WR sets so far.

 

[St. Widge]

I've been studying the Saints offense and 2 games is far too small of a sample size, but so far it is clear their goal is for Tipton to be their #3 guy. Shaheed and Olave are both 4.3 guys. Shaheed feels like a 4.0 guy to be honest. Tipton is another 4.3 guy.

With how Kubiak is putting his receivers in motion, they must be fast in order to be a genuine threat for reverses, pitches, and even having the ball snapped directly to them while they're in motion. They must be willing to block. Every receiver on the team has shown they give 100% blocking, but how many have the speed to actually be a threat to win the race to the edge? Kubiak has only had them "handoff" to a Wide Receiver four times, three to Shaheed and once to Olave, genuine threats to outflank the fastest defenses.

Saints WRs:
Rasheed Shaheed - can't find anything "official" but we know he's freaking fast.
Chris Olave - 4.26s readjusted to 4.39s 40 (wtf?).
Mason Tipton - 4.34s 40.
AT Perry - 4.47s 40.
Bub Means - 4.49s 40.
Cedrick Wilson - 4.55s 40.

If you replace Olave or Shaheed with anyone other than Tipton on the roster, it is an obvious loss of speed and versatility.

Perry, Means, and Wilson feel like guys who at this point are coming in purely for relief or if Kubiak is forced to go pass heavy.

I think the real concern is Running Back. No one on the team is even remotely close to Kamara and the only back who might be half as versatile as Kamara is on IR.

I mean the Saints drafted Means when Kubiak was already our OC so they clearly felt that he had a role in this offense. And it's not like this scheme doesn't make use of bigger, not elite speed WRs. We see that in S.F. with Deebo and Aiyuk who are 4.48 and 4.5 guys.

Kubiak is just putting his best players on the field in the attack that he wants to use each week and using them in the ways that they can be used best. That's what a good OC does. When he needs to use 3 and 4 WR sets he will (and he did use 3 WR sets plenty in week One). And there are places for bigger/slower WRs in this scheme. I just depends on what kind of WRs you have and what kind of attack you want each week. Right now Olave and Shaheed are far above the other WRs so the offense is being schemed to use their talents.

 

[meily]

I've been studying the Saints offense and 2 games is far too small of a sample size, but so far it is clear their goal is for Tipton to be their #3 guy. Shaheed and Olave are both 4.3 guys. Shaheed feels like a 4.0 guy to be honest. Tipton is another 4.3 guy.

With how Kubiak is putting his receivers in motion, they must be fast in order to be a genuine threat for reverses, pitches, and even having the ball snapped directly to them while they're in motion. They must be willing to block. Every receiver on the team has shown they give 100% blocking, but how many have the speed to actually be a threat to win the race to the edge? Kubiak has only had them "handoff" to a Wide Receiver four times, three to Shaheed and once to Olave, genuine threats to outflank the fastest defenses.

Saints WRs:
Rasheed Shaheed - can't find anything "official" but we know he's freaking fast.
Chris Olave - 4.26s readjusted to 4.39s 40 (wtf?).
Mason Tipton - 4.34s 40.
AT Perry - 4.47s 40.
Bub Means - 4.49s 40.
Cedrick Wilson - 4.55s 40.

If you replace Olave or Shaheed with anyone other than Tipton on the roster, it is an obvious loss of speed and versatility.

Perry, Means, and Wilson feel like guys who at this point are coming in purely for relief or if Kubiak is forced to go pass heavy.

I think the real concern is Running Back. No one on the team is even remotely close to Kamara and the only back who might be half as versatile as Kamara is on IR.

I have seen nothing to suggest Tipton is the #3 guy, but I do believe Kubiak is utilizing the players in his offense and he has some very fast skill position players that can bring fits to a defense that has to worry about a potential run on any given snaps because of the zone blocking scheme.

 

[BreesusSaves]

I mean the Saints drafted Means when Kubiak was already our OC so they clearly felt that he had a role in this offense. And it's not like this scheme doesn't make use of bigger, not elite speed WRs. We see that in S.F. with Deebo and Aiyuk who are 4.48 and 4.5 guys.

Kubiak is just putting his best players on the field in the attack that he wants to use each week and using them in the ways that they can be used best. That's what a good OC does. When he needs to use 3 and 4 WR sets he will (and he did use 3 WR sets plenty in week One). And there are places for bigger/slower WRs in this scheme. I just depends on what kind of WRs you have and what kind of attack you want each week. Right now Olave and Shaheed are far above the other WRs so the offense is being schemed to use their talents.

"Perry, Means, and Wilson feel like guys who at this point are coming in purely for relief or if Kubiak is forced to go pass heavy."

Do those guys have a role on the team? Yes. Is it in the core offense? No. Tipton making the final 53 makes so much more sense when you compare his measurables and what he brings to the table to Olave, Shaheed, and how Kubiak's schemed the first two weeks.

I have seen nothing to suggest Tipton is the #3 guy, but I do believe Kubiak is utilizing the players in his offense and he has some very fast skill position players that can bring fits to a defense that has to worry about a potential run on any given snaps because of the zone blocking scheme.

Last week against Dallas the guy coming in to spell Olave and Shaheed was Tipton.

 

[SWJJ]

Total snap counts WR:

Olave - 94
Shaheed - 84
Wilson - 41
Tipton - 32
Means - 6



I think Wilson/Tipton are somewhat interchangeably used to spell Olave/Shaheed. I wish I could find a break down that showed who was on the field when we were in 11 personnel.

 

[St. Widge]

"Perry, Means, and Wilson feel like guys who at this point are coming in purely for relief or if Kubiak is forced to go pass heavy."

Do those guys have a role on the team? Yes. Is it in the core offense? No. Tipton making the final 53 makes so much more sense when you compare his measurables and what he brings to the table to Olave, Shaheed, and how Kubiak's schemed the first two weeks.



Last week against Dallas the guy coming in to spell Olave and Shaheed was Tipton.

I really think the type of WR that is at the top of Kubiak's depth chart has more to do with the fact that by far the most talented guys we have are small 4.3 speed guys and not a conscious effort to have small 4.3 speed guys as the starting WRs. Tipton came in because he's the best fit to play the Shaheed role and he might even be the 3rd best WR on the team. Wilson is probably a better fit for Olave's role.

Kubiak came from S.F. and they run the same basic scheme using bigger WRs that run around 4.5 because those are their most talented receivers (Aiyuk and Samuels). In Miami they run the same scheme with little 4.3 speed guys because those guys are their most talented receivers (Hill and Waddle). In fact last year when Miami started to slide many said their issue was all they had were small 4.3 WRs and for the system to work right you need some bigger WRs like what San Francisco has. And all offseason people were looking for the Saints to find a bigger WR to fit the system. I think the system can work just fine with smaller 4.3 guys, but it's not a requirement of the system overall to have small fast receivers instead of bigger guys.

Good OCs adjust to their talent and that is what Kubiak is doing. If at some point, and I think it's highly unlikely, Means or Perry beat out Olave or Shaheed, he will adjust the scheme to fit what they do best. In the mean time, sure they are complementary pieces, but that's what all backups are until they reach starter level.

 

[meily]

"Perry, Means, and Wilson feel like guys who at this point are coming in purely for relief or if Kubiak is forced to go pass heavy."

Do those guys have a role on the team? Yes. Is it in the core offense? No. Tipton making the final 53 makes so much more sense when you compare his measurables and what he brings to the table to Olave, Shaheed, and how Kubiak's schemed the first two weeks.



Last week against Dallas the guy coming in to spell Olave and Shaheed was Tipton.

Wilson also got in the game. I am not saying you are wrong, but I do not think Tipton is the clear #3 he just got snaps vs the Cowboys.

 

[SWJJ]

Wilson also got in the game. I am not saying you are wrong, but I do not think Tipton is the clear #3 he just got snaps vs the Cowboys.

Snap counts per game:
______________Carolina_______Dallas_______Total___
Wilson 29 12 41
Tipton 17 15 32



It honestly maybe a match up issue as well. These trends may vary as the season progresses.

 

[DeuceMcAllisterFan]

If Tipton keeps blocking like he did in the Cowboys game, he's going to overtake Wilson sooner than later.

 

[BreesusSaves]

I really think the type of WR that is at the top of Kubiak's depth chart has more to do with the fact that by far the most talented guys we have are small 4.3 speed guys and not a conscious effort to have small 4.3 speed guys as the starting WRs. Tipton came in because he's the best fit to play the Shaheed role and he might even be the 3rd best WR on the team. Wilson is probably a better fit for Olave's role.

Kubiak came from S.F. and they run the same basic scheme using bigger WRs that run around 4.5 because those are their most talented receivers (Aiyuk and Samuels). In Miami they run the same scheme with little 4.3 speed guys because those guys are their most talented receivers (Hill and Waddle). In fact last year when Miami started to slide many said their issue was all they had were small 4.3 WRs and for the system to work right you need some bigger WRs like what San Francisco has. And all offseason people were looking for the Saints to find a bigger WR to fit the system. I think the system can work just fine with smaller 4.3 guys, but it's not a requirement of the system overall to have small fast receivers instead of bigger guys.

Good OCs adjust to their talent and that is what Kubiak is doing. If at some point, and I think it's highly unlikely, Means or Perry beat out Olave or Shaheed, he will adjust the scheme to fit what they do best. In the mean time, sure they are complementary pieces, but that's what all backups are until they reach starter level.

The Saints lack of pursuit of a prototypical "big body" receiver this offseason combined with keeping Tipton, a guy who played a whopping 2 weeks of training camp and then missed the rest, on the final 53 says a lot. I think while Shanahan may value bigger wide receivers in premier roles, Kubiak does not. And honestly, I hope Kubiak doesn't try to simply replicate the 49ers offense here. You want to be the team at the front of the evolutionary curve, not the rear.

Wilson also got in the game. I am not saying you are wrong, but I do not think Tipton is the clear #3 he just got snaps vs the Cowboys.

Wilson did get in the game, both he and Tipton also had a notable decrease in total snaps because the backups didn't get much playing time until the fourth quarter compared to the massacre of the Panthers. However what I noticed was it looked like Tipton came in more than Wilson during the first three quarters, and also out-snapped Wilson as well against Dallas. I haven't been able to sit down and go snap by snap for the offense for the Dallas game, but sure I'll have the time this week, but so far Tipton's stock looks like it is rising. This staff loves Tipton and I expect his snap count will continue to creep up and cement him as the #3 guy.

 

[bobad]

Dennis and Kubiak must be confident in Tipton and Wilson to spell and back up the 1s or they would have made a move by now.