18-41 as a Head Coach (2 Viewers)

[Outbackjack]

Payton followed 06 by missing the playoffs the next two seasons.

Right. And how’d he do in 2009?

 

[madsaint1967]

36 of those games were with the Raiders, a bottom 5 franchise in the NFL over the past 20 years

He's 10-13 as the Saints HC, Sean Payton was 13-10 after 23 games as Saints HC.

Difference between winner and loser.

 

[cygnus_ltb]

Dennis Allen doesn’t have a Hall-of-Fame quarterback under center. In 100+ years of NFL history, they’ve only made about 50 of those.

This team’s problem is consistency, but the bottom hasn’t fallen out the way it typically goes when a Hall-of-Fame QB hangs em up. When Payton’s friend coaching the opposite side of the ball was restraining how good the entire team could be, he got rid of him. Even that took two full seasons of incompetency on tape before it happened.

This team's problem, in my opinion, is that they cannot protect the quarterback. I don't know enough to know whether its personnel, coaching, playcalling, scheme, communication, poor quarterback or receiver play or a combination of some or all of those things. I think it is probably a combination of things, which is troublesome. Its too much to try to fix, but I'd like to see them try by firing or demoting Carmichael. That seems to be an obvious first step at least.

 

[sfidc3]

You're not actually trying to compare the roster that Payton took over in 2006 to the one Allen took over in 2022, right?

DA supporters will go to any absurd lengths to minimize what CSP did here, it's beyond ridiculous.....

Payton followed 06 by missing the playoffs the next two seasons.

Yup, he wasn't perfect, far from it.....BUT, quick, what happened the next season?

DA’s defenders mainly want him to have a chance to bring in his own OC. Very few people here are defending both DA and Pete Carmichael.

Why do folks keep parroting this line that a HC doesn't have the authority to make OC, DC or any other assistant coach changes? Only in the most dysfunctional organizations could this be the case.....and CSP made plenty of changes under the same FO (albeit, sometimes not as quickly as we wanted), so this is really just more BS spouted by DA supporters.....

 

[Saint KayBee]

Yup, he wasn't perfect, far from it.....BUT, quick, what happened the next season?

He fired one of his closest friends and the change at DC gave the team a competent enough defense to win the Super Bowl.

 

[fanoftheyear7]

You act as if Payton took over a bad team. Not making excuses for Dennis Allen but he took over a team in salary cap hell and QBs of Andy Dalton, Winston And Taysom Hill. Featuring an all pro receiver who had basically missed 2 yrs after a ridiculous contract. Sean Payton was in a good cap position including having the #2 overall pick of the draft and not only future hall of fame QB but quite possibly top 5 of all time. With zero expectations following Katrina. One could argue Sean Payton had many luxuries Dennis Allen did not.

 

[sfidc3]

He fired one of his closest friends and the change at DC gave the team a competent enough defense to win the Super Bowl.

Wasn't asking you....but ok.....so you do acknowledge the HC has the power to change things not working (in this case the OC)?

Because if you do, then most of your arguments supporting DA fall apart.....

 

[AmerVet]

You act as if Payton took over a bad team. Not making excuses for Dennis Allen but he took over a team in salary cap hell and QBs of Andy Dalton, Winston And Taysom Hill. Featuring an all pro receiver who had basically missed 2 yrs after a ridiculous contract. Sean Payton was in a good cap position including having the #2 overall pick of the draft and not only future hall of fame QB but quite possibly top 5 of all time. With zero expectations following Katrina. One could argue Sean Payton had many luxuries Dennis Allen did not.

One could also argue that even without high expectations, CSP took a 3-13 team to a 10-6 team in his 1st year with all the distractions of post Katrina. And he did it with a bad defense.

 

[fanoftheyear7]

One could also argue that even without high expectations, CSP took a 3-13 team to a 10-6 team in his 1st year with all the distractions of post Katrina. And he did it with a bad defense.

I was about to completely agree with you but far from a bad defense. A majority of that core defense helped win a Super Bowl. Charles grant was injured. But he and will smith. Shanle and fujita, Roman Harper. 2006 had Hollis Thomas and Mike McKenzie. Brian young was very active rushing the passer. Far from a bad defense.

 

[AmerVet]

I was about to completely agree with you but far from a bad defense. A majority of that core defense helped win a Super Bowl. Charles grant was injured. But he and will smith. Shanle and fujita, Roman Harper. 2006 had Hollis Thomas and Mike McKenzie. Brian young was very active rushing the passer. Far from a bad defense.

You are right. We were in the top 15 that year. I guess I was thinking about the 07 campaign when we fell way off on the defensive end.

 

[KaiZenMuse]

This is true, but Payton showed promise and his offense was never dull or the cause of loosing. Payton's offense were exciting. With all the studs we have on offense this year, we should be scoring 30+ a game. Either DA needs to find an OC that can get this team moving or he needs to go also. This is nothing but a .500 team this year.

I believe the mantra is "Just keep doing to what you're doing"

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

The comparisons between Payton and Allen aren't really very helpful given the specific contexts of a 'total overhaul' vs 'continuity,' a deep playoff run that earned Payton a lot of leeway, etc. Ultimately, they each have their own coaching record that speaks for itself.

Probably best to just judge Dennis Allen on his own performance as head coach - not as defensive coordinator, but head coach. The guy who has final say over the roster and who does what inside the building and on gameday. Ultimately, the buck stops with DA. If he continues to defend Pete and insist that changing playcalling duties "isnt the thing to do", then they'll go down together.

I was hoping for a new total overhaul when Payton left and still think we're going to get there, its just going to happen after 2 wasted years, which is a shame. I thought the NFC South being abysmal might keep us afloat for another division title (which would save DA for at least one more year) but the wheels are falling off pretty rapidly. Hopefully Loomis/Lauscha/Bensel will convince Gayle to rip the band-aid off ASAP at the end of the season.

 

[CajunSaint08]

I believe the mantra is "Just keep doing to what you're doing"

I know....and that sucks. But you are correct.

 

[KaiZenMuse]

I know....and that sucks. But you are correct.

Indeed it does. Cheers my brother/sister in masochism

 

[Broad St. Saint]

You act as if Payton took over a bad team. Not making excuses for Dennis Allen but he took over a team in salary cap hell and QBs of Andy Dalton, Winston And Taysom Hill. Featuring an all pro receiver who had basically missed 2 yrs after a ridiculous contract. Sean Payton was in a good cap position including having the #2 overall pick of the draft and not only future hall of fame QB but quite possibly top 5 of all time. With zero expectations following Katrina. One could argue Sean Payton had many luxuries Dennis Allen did not.

The Saints team you are describing that Allen took over in January 22 had just completed a winning season without Drew Brees and while starting multiple QBs, none of whom are current NFL starters. Why did they have a winning season? IMHO because of coaching and a strong roster except for the QB position.

Not many first-year head coaches inherit a team coming off a winning season, as Allen did.