20 years worth of baptisms invalidated (1 Viewer)

[Booker]

quite the opposite. Salvation isn’t a work based system, so there is a REDUCED reliance on church.

I guess that depends on who you ask regarding salvation not being a work based system (James 2:17 and 2:24, for example, seem to say different).

Otherwise, being raised Catholic, I remember being told that I had to confess my sins to a priest and eat a cracker that had been blessed by a priest into the flesh of Jesus, which both created a reliance on the church. Likewise, many sects (Jehovah's Witness, for example) discourage fraternizing with people outside of the faith, which creates an insular dependence.

 

[SystemShock]

Gods of war came first. Yahweh, for example, was a regional god that was considered a "divine warrior" and was prayed to for favor long before the idea of an afterlife or heaven or hell came into play -- people that died just went to sleep in Sheol. Then the Persian conquest introduced Zoroastrianism, and with it the idea that the bad people will burn while the good people will be rewarded, which syncretized with and was adopted by Judaism.

I think the gods of the afterlife were somewhat of a "cosmopolitan" development as societies gained elements of stability -- i.e. when you're hungry you pray for food so you don't die, when you're cold you pray for warm weather so you don't die, when there's war you pray for victory so you don't die, but when these needs are taken care of you pray that when you get old and die you don't really die.

So likewise, when other cultures were developing savior gods (Osiris in Egypt, Dionysus, Adonis, and Zagreus in the Greek world, Tammuz in Sumeria, Attis in Phrygia, Mithra in Persia), a sect of Judaism developed there own with Jesus.

I am thinking before Yahweh, before Brahma, before Zoroaster, before any of the recorded gods in history. We know that at one point homo sapiens looked at the Sun and made it a "god", but we don't know who did it first or when. In that sense, we don't know who was the first group of people who came up with the idea of an afterlife, or how it was concocted, given that a number of cultures that seemingly never had contact with each other came with similar concepts.

I get the idea of the afterlife being a "cosmopolitan" concept... seems a valid argument can be made that ruling classes came up with it, trying to rationalize some form of immortality for themselves, or after declaring themselves living gods.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I am thinking before Yahweh, before Brahma, before Zoroaster, before any of the recorded gods in history. We know that at one point homo sapiens looked at the Sun and made it a "god", but we don't know who did it first or when. In that sense, we don't know who was the first group of people who came up with the idea of an afterlife, or how it was concocted, given that a number of cultures that seemingly never had contact with each other came with similar concepts.

I get the idea of the afterlife being a "cosmopolitan" concept... seems a valid argument can be made that ruling classes came up with it, trying to rationalize some form of immortality for themselves, or after declaring themselves living gods.

One of the favorite theories I heard was the after life was a byproduct of written language
When peoples developed the ability to still communicate after their death, an afterlife was born

 

[kansast]

We, I. What ever ! People shouldn’t take themselves so seriously.

 

[Eeyore]

I'm gonna need you to define terrible for me. in your opinion anyway..
kinda seems like you are putting walking by a homeless person, rape and murder all in the same category

They're definitely different but I would say that watching somebody hunger and refusing to help is terrible.

Give a toddler two cookies and the toddler will offer a cookie to somebody. They'll even break theirs in half to make sure that somebody who wants one can get something.

We teach our children to keep all of the cookies. We teach them deviant behavior. We're a sick society. We don't just tolerate the deviants who keep all of the cookies, we celebrate them. We strive to emulate them.

Even monkeys understand that inequity is wrong. We don't. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/monkeys-recognize-and-shun-selfish-others/

 

[sammymvpknight]

I guess that depends on who you ask regarding salvation not being a work based system (James 2:17 and 2:24, for example, seem to say different).

Otherwise, being raised Catholic, I remember being told that I had to confess my sins to a priest and eat a cracker that had been blessed by a priest into the flesh of Jesus, which both created a reliance on the church. Likewise, many sects (Jehovah's Witness, for example) discourage fraternizing with people outside of the faith, which creates an insular dependence.

I love Catholics. I was born Catholic and my wife is Catholic. I’m not a member of the Catholic Church but I’m certain that there are plenty of Catholics in heaven.

 

[bigdaddysaints]

They're definitely different but I would say that watching somebody hunger and refusing to help is terrible.

Give a toddler two cookies and the toddler will offer a cookie to somebody. They'll even break theirs in half to make sure that somebody who wants one can get something.

We teach our children to keep all of the cookies. We teach them deviant behavior. We're a sick society. We don't just tolerate the deviants who keep all of the cookies, we celebrate them. We strive to emulate them.

Even monkeys understand that inequity is wrong. We don't. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/monkeys-recognize-and-shun-selfish-others/

well, I've never walked over a homeless person who i knew was starving. i have given to people who asked for money many many times, put gas in people's cars, etc. people ask why, how do you know you aren't giving them money for drugs, i say that's not my problem. i can't control what they do, all i can do is control what i do. sure there were times when i didn't have any cash, i guess i could have went to an ATM, but i didn't. in your mind maybe that makes me a terrible person, but I know it doesn't. does it make me the best person, also no. but i refuse to believe every person i know is a terrible person,..
like i said, I'll never win person of the year or even person of the day, but I'm not a terrible person by any means, sorry to disappoint you . but continue to live your life thinking you and everyone else is terrible..

 

[perret318]

Give a toddler two cookies and the toddler will offer a cookie to somebody. They'll even break theirs in half to make sure that somebody who wants one can get something.

What the hell toddlers are you hanging around?

The same toddlers who couldn't care less about a toy they haven't touched in weeks, but the minute another kid wants to play with it, suddenly bolts across the room to grab it first, while screaming "MINE!" at the top of their lungs? Those toddlers?

 

[Consigliere]

I love Catholics. I was born Catholic and my wife is Catholic. I’m not a member of the Catholic Church but I’m certain that there are plenty of Catholics in heaven.

Certain? The evidence that "there are plenty of Catholics in Heaven" is precisely the same as that "there are plenty of Pirates in Neverland."

If Heaven exists, then that is probably right, there are plenty of Catholics there. The poor altar boys, mostly. Probably not many priests.

For what it is worth, I love Catholics too. Or I used to. It's not fair really. Muslims get 72 virgins, I got a few bowheads from St. Joseph of Baton Rouge, and virgins they wasn't.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

What the hell toddlers are you hanging around?

The same toddlers who couldn't care less about a toy they haven't touched in weeks, but the minute another kid wants to play with it, suddenly bolts across the room to grab it first, while screaming "MINE!" at the top of their lungs? Those toddlers?

Eeyore is citing well documented research- infants and many other primates (bonobos especially, chumps not so much) have innate sense of fairness- if they’re being rewarded for something and someone else isn’t, they will instinctively share

And that is not in conflict with your observation- one can have a sense of ‘mine’ and still try to fight the inequities of an unjust reward system

 

[perret318]

Eeyore is citing well documented research- infants and many other primates (bonobos especially, chumps not so much) have innate sense of fairness- if they’re being rewarded for something and someone else isn’t, they will instinctively share

And that is not in conflict with your observation- one can have a sense of ‘mine’ and still try to fight the inequities of an unjust reward system

That's kind of my point. Making a generalization like "toddlers do such and such a benevolent thing" is greatly overstating the reality. The reality is that it's totally dependent on personality. Hell, I have two kids, and one of them would totally share unprompted, and the other would be screaming their lungs out. Very close in age, raised in the same household by the same parents.

So the capacity for benevolence is there, of course. But anyone who had interacted with more than a handful of people in their life can tell you that there's no standard behavior that's ingrained in each human being.

 

[Booker]

That's kind of my point. Making a generalization like "toddlers do such and such a benevolent thing" is greatly overstating the reality. The reality is that it's totally dependent on personality. Hell, I have two kids, and one of them would totally share unprompted, and the other would be screaming their lungs out. Very close in age, raised in the same household by the same parents.

So the capacity for benevolence is there, of course. But anyone who had interacted with more than a handful of people in their life can tell you that there's no standard behavior that's ingrained in each human being.

True story. When my younger son was in preschool, one day he was playing with some toys by himself. One of the other children also wanted to play with the same toys, so the teacher asked him, "Nathan, can you share your toys?"

His reply: "Nathan shares with Nathan."

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

That's kind of my point. Making a generalization like "toddlers do such and such a benevolent thing" is greatly overstating the reality. The reality is that it's totally dependent on personality. Hell, I have two kids, and one of them would totally share unprompted, and the other would be screaming their lungs out. Very close in age, raised in the same household by the same parents.

So the capacity for benevolence is there, of course. But anyone who had interacted with more than a handful of people in their life can tell you that there's no standard behavior that's ingrained in each human being.

I think two things are at play
First I do believe the foundation of cooperation is real (I might even argue that individual autonomy is a story we’ve concocted after the Industrial Revolution- but that’s not this thread)
A tribe is only going to survive with individual cooperation
HOWEVER
That doesn’t mean that everyone being completely magnanimous is the best survival instinct either
Biology builds in diversity/adaptability for important reasons- while wholly selfish individuals would die off in a scant few generations
A wholly communal group creates its own vulnerabilities
Like obviously there is some interplay between the desire to build a community and a sense of adventure- if everyone wants to stay in the caves or trees or whatever, the group quickly starves
But if everyone sets out hunting or sailing or whatever, then there’s probably no community to come back to (and clearly no safety for kids)

But my contention is that this interplay is not a 50/50 proposition
I’m guessing it’s something more like 90/10 or 80/20 community vs ‘individual’

 

[Arathrael]

Eeyore is citing well documented research- infants and many other primates (bonobos especially, chumps not so much) have innate sense of fairness- if they’re being rewarded for something and someone else isn’t, they will instinctively share

And that is not in conflict with your observation- one can have a sense of ‘mine’ and still try to fight the inequities of an unjust reward system

Not just primates either. There was a fun experiment with rats. Basically one rat gets some tasty treats and another rat is trapped. First rat can have all the food to themselves, or free the other rat and share. A majority of rats freed the other rat.

Jailbreak Rat: Selfless Rodents Spring Their Pals and Share Their Sweets

A new study suggests that rodents are far more altruistic than previously thought

www.scientificamerican.com

... what was this thread about again?

 

[bigdaddysaints]

Not just primates either. There was a fun experiment with rats. Basically one rat gets some tasty treats and another rat is trapped. First rat can have all the food to themselves, or free the other rat and share. A majority of rats freed the other rat.

Jailbreak Rat: Selfless Rodents Spring Their Pals and Share Their Sweets

A new study suggests that rodents are far more altruistic than previously thought

www.scientificamerican.com

... what was this thread about again?

current topic is what is considered terrible, and everyone is a terrible b person deep down..