20 years worth of baptisms invalidated (2 Viewers)

[Madmarsha]

I grew up with some of those folks. Yes, the angst would be very real.

This kind of foolishness is why I turned away from organized religion many moons ago. I'm sure the priest's heart was in the right place but it won't matter all because of nonsense over a pronoun. Good lord I hate dogma

Words don't mean anything anymore .... except, you know, pronouns. Don't dare call me by a pronoun I haven't given you permission to call me.

 

[play action]

The two on the ark shaking hands say we. Ironic getting it right,thinking your wrong, but whatever. The rest of it just sounds like order in the court. first things first second things second.abc not cba yeah it sounds reasonable to me.

 

[JenningsTruckers]

Not a Catholic, how big a deal is this?

Inconvenience? "I have to go get baptized again"

Or, soul shaken to the core? "My life's been a lie?"

If you're not Catholic why even bring it up ? Shouldn't concern you at all. Why bring it up on a football news site ? Is this going to affect the New Orleans Saints ?

 

[zeetes]

If you're not Catholic why even bring it up ? Shouldn't concern you at all. Why bring it up on a football news site ? Is this going to affect the New Orleans Saints ?

well.. it is on the "everything else board" and i thought it is a valid question.

 

[Optimus Prime]

If you're not Catholic why even bring it up ? Shouldn't concern you at all. Why bring it up on a football news site ? Is this going to affect the New Orleans Saints ?

Yes this is Saints Report, but you see we have this separate board called everything else, which is literally about everything other than the Saints

Big part of the reason things are the way they are is way too many people could care less about anything or anyone that doesn’t affect them directly

Curiosity and interest in things that don’t concern you is a good thing

You should try it some time

And I’ve shown similar curiosity about similar stories before

China: 20 tons of pig meat sold as halal to Muslims

China: 20 tons of pig meat sold as halal to MuslimsMuslims in the Shaanxi province of China are furious after discovering that what they believed were halal beef products were actually pork.Police in Xi’an, the capital of China’s Shaanxi province, have seized more than 20 thousand kilograms...

saintsreport.com

Serious question:

How big a deal is this for Muslims?

Is this a, 'I didn't knowingly eat pork so I'm okay' or is it a , 'my immortal soul is now in danger'

 

[DaveXA]

If you're not Catholic why even bring it up ? Shouldn't concern you at all. Why bring it up on a football news site ? Is this going to affect the New Orleans Saints ?

He brought it up because he was curious. Nothing more than that. The discussion has been entirely respectful. So I don't see an issue here. And this is the EE board. If you just want football news, you can always stick to the SSF.

 

[livefromDC]

He brought it up because he was curious. Nothing more than that. The discussion has been entirely respectful. So I don't see an issue here. And this is the EE board. If you just want football news, you can always stick to the SSF.

I was pretty disrespectful but I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[UK SAINTS]

I was pretty disrespectful but I wholeheartedly agree.

But, you come with a disclaimer.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Good article about this. And first I've seen with an estimated number.

Thousands
===========================================

Their marriages, confessions, promises of salvation — all of these things ceased to exist for thousands of Catholics baptized by an Arizona priest who, it turns out, was saying the sacrament script wrong.

The Rev. Andres Arango for decades said “We baptize you in the name of the …” instead of “I baptize you in the name of …” After diocesan officials found that out, they said last month that people who Arango baptized aren’t technically Catholic. That means they weren’t eligible, from a Catholic point of view, for other sacraments.

The story made news around the world. Some wondered how what appears to have been an innocent mistake over pronouns could threaten people’s very sense of religious security. Others saw evidence of a longtime debate among Catholics about who holds power, laypeople or the clergy. Cases of priests whose own childhood baptisms had the word “we” started to surface.

Looking for more information, The Washington Post this week interviewed the Rev. Thomas Reese, a political scientist and longtime journalist who has written several books about the inner workings of the Catholic Church. Reese first wrote about the baptism wording issue in 2020, in an article whose headline began: “Vatican causes chaos.”

Q: What prompted you to write about this in 2020?

A: The [Vatican’s doctrine-enforcing arm] that year issued a document saying any baptism using “we” vs. “I” is not only illicit but invalid; the baptism doesn’t happen. I said then that this will cause absolute chaos in the Church. There were priests doing this out of the feeling it might make [the baptism ceremony] more colloquial. No one thought anything serious about it. Maybe it’s against the rules but the baptisms were still valid, people thought. When the [Vatican] did this in June 2020, I felt it was a pastoral disaster for the Church and for people. I thought: “They have to pull this rule, to reverse this.”

Q: What did the Vatican do in 2020?

A: They issued what’s called a “doctrinal note,” which are usually responses to questions they get from bishops or priests. I don’t think the use of “we” was widespread. It was one of those things that happened after the Second Vatican Council [in the 1960s] when people were a little looser with liturgical rules. Some Catholics wanted to be more inclusive and less clerical, and some felt using “we” would do that. I don’t think anyone thought that deeply about it. It was one of those things some people did. Others thought: “That’s nice,” or just didn’t think it was that big a deal.

Q: Are specific words important? If so, why would some priests think they can just pick alternates?

A: The hierarchy wants priests to follow the words in sacramental ceremonies very strictly. On the other hand there is structure in [the sacrament] for some adaptations. And also there is disagreement. We know historically there were times in the Church when priests made up prayers. In different communities they had different lingos. In the early centuries of the Church, they didn’t have books. It wasn’t until the printing press that you could force people to use the exact same language.

And there’s some evidence that in ancient times, people would baptize “in the name of Jesus” [instead of in the name of the holy trinity of “the father, the son and the holy spirit,” as is said today]. Orthodox churches use a passive voice: “This person is baptized …” and the Catholic Church has recognized those baptisms for centuries.

The bottom line is, historically the words of baptism have changed. To make suddenly a big deal of whether a priest uses “I” or “we” is mind-boggling.........

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[Optimus Prime]

I believe that God would allow this - they aren’t invalid.

From the above article
===============

Q: Then why did the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issue this doctrinal note in 2020?

A: I don’t think they understood what they were doing. Also, the Church can’t admit it made a mistake.

There could be thousands of laypeople affected, by even just a few priests. But ultimately God will take care of it all. Are these people going to hell? No. The Church says: “we can guarantee God works in the sacrament” but he can also work outside the sacraments. God can give his grace and fill you with his spirit any old time he wants.

The average liberal Catholic will shrug their shoulders and say this is a bunch of nonsense. The ones who will be hurt will be the very scrupulous Catholics who might worry. They might be concerned if their sins were really forgiven? I feel sorry for them. Most people will shake their heads and say: “What’s the big deal?”.....

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[JenningsTruckers]

He brought it up because he was curious. Nothing more than that. The discussion has been entirely respectful. So I don't see an issue here. And this is the EE board. If you just want football news, you can always stick to the SSF.

I hear ya Dave , I'm a proud Catholic and it ruffled my feathers a little bit . I feel like the Catholic religion always gets judged . I'm all good now , just whatever.

 

[DaveXA]

I hear ya Dave , I'm a proud Catholic and it ruffled my feathers a little bit . I feel like the Catholic religion always gets judged . I'm all good now , just whatever.

Yeah, it's all good. Sometimes you gotta not take some of the comments personally. I just ignore those.

 

[sammymvpknight]

Why can’t “we” refer to the father, son, and Holy Ghost?

 

[SaintRob]

Imagine being someone who's family member died and you find out that they are in hell because their baptism didn't follow the correct procedure.

You think bureaucracy is bad in life, imagine having to wait in hell for Catholic tech support.

Right? Can you imagine God or St. Peter telling a soul, "But your priest said the wrong word during your baptism. I know you were a righteous and pious person, living as an exemplary Christian, but the contract is null and void due to this error. I'm sorry, but you're just going to have to live your after life in Hell. There's nothing I can do."

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

something something turn the other cheek