20 years worth of baptisms invalidated (3 Viewers)

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Woof. What a headache...


It may seem legalistic, but the words that are spoken (the sacramental form), along with the actions that are performed and the materials used (the sacramental matter) are a crucial aspect of every sacrament. If you change the words, actions, or materials required in any of the sacraments, they are not valid. For example, if a priest uses milk instead of wine during the Consecration of the Eucharist, the sacrament is not valid. The milk would not become the Blood of Jesus Christ.

It is important to note that, while God instituted the sacraments for us, He is not bound by them. Though they are our surest access to grace, God can grant His grace in ways known only to Him. According to St. Thomas Aquinas, God has bound Himself to the sacraments, but He is not bound by the sacraments. This means that while we can be certain that God always works through the sacraments when they are properly conferred by the minister, God is not bound by the sacraments in that He can and does extend His grace in whatever measure and manner He wills. We can be assured that all who approached God, our Father, in good faith to receive the sacraments did not walk away empty-handed.
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Optimus Prime said:
Not a Catholic, how big a deal is this?

Inconvenience? "I have to go get baptized again"

Or, soul shaken to the core? "My life's been a lie?"
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*The opinions expressed in this post are solely the purview of the poster, and do not speak for God, Jesus, or The Holy Spirit. The opinions expressed herein should not be taken as guidance on the action you should take to avoid going to Hell for eternity after you die*

I guess it really depends on if you think God is more of a letter of the law or spirit of the law type of deity

I would lean towards spirit of the law in this case
 
Saint_Ward said:
Woof. What a headache...

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My wife is a "former Catholic" (not sure if this is a valid description) that currently attends a Baptist church with me. She still holds on to many of the traditions of the Catholic church. I am open (and many times agree) with many of the Catholic beliefs.
She once worried about not taking The Lord's Supper (Communion) enough (our church observes it at least once per month) and whether Transubstantiation occurs. What is the Catholic stance on this? Does the sacrament have to be performed by a priest? Some Baptist believers believe that the husband is the priest of his family. IMO, I suggested that if the Lord turns the wine to blood, then wouldn't it happen, even if the pastor does not necessarily believe in the transformation? Does it actually take his (priest or pastor) belief for it to occur? Or is it up to the faith of the believer? Or does God cause the change?

Just wouldn't mind hearing your (and others') opinion on this....
 
UK SAINTS said:
My wife is a "former Catholic" (not sure if this is a valid description) that currently attends a Baptist church with me. She still holds on to many of the traditions of the Catholic church. I am open (and many times agree) with many of the Catholic beliefs.
She once worried about not taking The Lord's Supper (Communion) enough (our church observes it at least once per month) and whether Transubstantiation occurs. What is the Catholic stance on this? Does the sacrament have to be performed by a priest? Some Baptist believers believe that the husband is the priest of his family. IMO, I suggested that if the Lord turns the wine to blood, then wouldn't it happen, even if the pastor does not necessarily believe in the transformation? Does it actually take his (priest or pastor) belief for it to occur? Or is it up to the faith of the believer? Or does God cause the change?

Just wouldn't mind hearing your (and others') opinion on this....
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Brennan can speak to this more specifically but it is my understanding that both thought and action are necessary for the transubstantiation to occur
 
UK SAINTS said:
My wife is a "former Catholic" (not sure if this is a valid description) that currently attends a Baptist church with me. She still holds on to many of the traditions of the Catholic church. I am open (and many times agree) with many of the Catholic beliefs.
She once worried about not taking The Lord's Supper (Communion) enough (our church observes it at least once per month) and whether Transubstantiation occurs. What is the Catholic stance on this? Does the sacrament have to be performed by a priest? Some Baptist believers believe that the husband is the priest of his family. IMO, I suggested that if the Lord turns the wine to blood, then wouldn't it happen, even if the pastor does not necessarily believe in the transformation? Does it actually take his (priest or pastor) belief for it to occur? Or is it up to the faith of the believer? Or does God cause the change?

Just wouldn't mind hearing your (and others') opinion on this....
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Yes, Priest or Bishop. This hints at it, but their hands have been blessed in order to bless and consecrate things. (My rudimentary understanding).

thecatholicspirit.com

Transubstantiation: Not as difficult as it sounds - TheCatholicSpirit.com

Transubstantiation is a doctrine or a core belief about the Eucharist. It is a technical theological term and a matter of faith that is often experienced as an intimidating concept, almost beyond comprehension, and difficult to explain. Yet, it is taught to our second graders at St. Bartholomew...
thecatholicspirit.com thecatholicspirit.com
 
Saint_Ward said:
Yes, Priest or Bishop. This hints at it, but their hands have been blessed in order to bless and consecrate things. (My rudimentary understanding).

thecatholicspirit.com

Transubstantiation: Not as difficult as it sounds - TheCatholicSpirit.com

Transubstantiation is a doctrine or a core belief about the Eucharist. It is a technical theological term and a matter of faith that is often experienced as an intimidating concept, almost beyond comprehension, and difficult to explain. Yet, it is taught to our second graders at St. Bartholomew...
thecatholicspirit.com thecatholicspirit.com
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It's the ordination into the priesthood of Christ via apostolic authority that enables them to act in persona christi when offering the sacrifice of the mass. Can't post much now but will follow up later.
 
WhoDatPhan78 said:
Imagine being someone who's family member died and you find out that they are in hell because their baptism didn't follow the correct procedure.

You think bureaucracy is bad in life, imagine having to wait in hell for Catholic tech support.
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"I am sorry sir/ma'am, we have recently been informed that you do not meet the qualification to reside here in Heaven. We have prepared more appropriate accommodations in the Purgatory wing."
 
Optimus Prime said:
It depends on what they believe

Is the baptism a symbolic ceremony or absolutely necessary for their immortal soul?

And if it's the latter and the church says it's the latter is there any legal recourse for the families of those who had an invalid baptism but passed away before it was discovered?
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Good question - I can't think of any kind of applicable traditional tort or wrongful act, apart from general negligence. I suppose you could craft a persuasive claim of general negligence: the priest agreeing to fulfill this sacrament by performing the baptism has a duty to use reasonable care and he breached that duty with his mistake that the church has now said was critical, and invalidated the baptism. I think any real damages would be highly difficult to prove (you can't prove it prejudiced that person's soul). But I think a case for some kind of presumed/nominal damages might be possible.

Another question is who could bring that claim, I would think it would have to be the estate (or equivalent form of the deceased's personal representative). Not all claims are viably brought after death, but I don't know how this would fit into that.

The family members could argue some kind of negligent infliction of emotional distress - but those claims are difficult and typically only apply to a situation where the claimant was in the vicinity of some kind of serious incident ("zone of danger" rule). I don't think that would apply to a case like this.
 
superchuck500 said:
The family members could argue some kind of negligent infliction of emotional distress - but those claims are difficult and typically only apply to a situation where the claimant was in the vicinity of some kind of serious incident ("zone of danger" rule). I don't think that would apply to a case like this.
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Have you been to someone's house and it looks like a church gift shop? Or a family where 'staunch' and 'devout' aren't strong enough adjectives?

I can imagine them having emotional distress
 

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