Build the Saints' 3-4 Defense (7 Viewers)

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

I think you still need prototypical two-gap players to play that gap and a half scheme, particularly tall defensive ends with long arms. The gap and a half structure just allows you to play with a lighter box because the DL will clog the middle and buy time for the second and third level defenders to tackle the runner when they are forced outside. Staley picked up the system from working with Fangio in Chicago and Denver.

Another thing I found out while researching is that the Eagles head coach was notorious for running a light TC/Practices. Fangio came aboard and and suggested that they make practice longer and add more practices. Sirianni obliged, and the now the Eagles are headed to the SB.

To implement both schemes properly, I hope Kellen Moore runs a lengthy and tough TC. Forget trying to save bodies etc. If there are injuries coach the next guys up, they'll be that much more prepared when the starters come back, but conserving veteran players for the sake of we need to keep these guys healthy just isn't going to cut it.

 

[Snakehead]

If we go to a 3-4 Bresee drops the weight and plays DE...
He would have to put on 30 lbs to play NT... I don't think he would be the same player with the extra weight.

That would take away Bresee's greatest strength right now.


I'd rather Ridgeway put on the weight and get his lower body stronger to play NT.

 

[Mr. Coach Klein]

I just hope he proves me wrong in year 3 cause as of today 02/01/2025, it ain't looking good for ol boy.

Only Seiler and Heyward had more sacks as a DT than him last year. He had 7.5 in year 2 as a DT! He's one of our best young players.

 

[SirLoinSaint64]

The 3-4 allows a lot of flexibility and creativity in regard to blitzing. But you have to have a legit NT and basically 2 freakish DT's to play the DE spots. I think Bresee and Werner would thrive. Granderson in no way shape or form fits the system. Foskey should just be cut period.

 

[tjharris]

And that would make him a bust. Idk bout y'all but I'd rather have a run stopping DT than a pass rushing DT that can't play 4 downs.

When a team can establish the run, they can run the clock up and pass at will .just stopping the pass and not the run is not a winning recipe for the defense. Esp now our DBS are getting banged up and can be contested.

Bresee has to show the world he can stay in the league and can be a starter in year 3.

I would seriously prefer him to drop 20 lbs and become a DE. He will kill.

I don't think he would even have to drop weight to be a 3 - 4, 5 tech. Most of those guys are pushing 300lbs

If he can read and react like a DE
I think 5 tech is a better fit for Bresee, physically.

 

[Mr. Coach Klein]

The 3-4 allows a lot of flexibility and creativity in regard to blitzing. But you have to have a legit NT and basically 2 freakish DT's to play the DE spots. I think Bresee and Werner would thrive. Granderson in no way shape or form fits the system. Foskey should just be cut period.

Granderson could play the Josh Sweat role. They're both the same size. Sweat is more athletic though. Both were only targeted in coverage 2 times last year. He's basically just a wide 9 edge rusher.

The only thing that changes (switching to a 3-4 under) are needing a hybrid OLB (to play the Nakobi Dean role) instead of a 4-3 end.

In either scheme we need to upgrade our 1 tech and 5 tech (our current bigger strong side DE: Cam/Tanoh/Turner)

 

[Bayou_City]

Only Seiler and Heyward had more sacks as a DT than him last year. He had 7.5 in year 2 as a DT! He's one of our best young players.

So he is a Defensive end is what you are saying? Cause he can't play the run or start.....

 

[Mr. Coach Klein]

So he is a Defensive end is what you are saying? Cause he can't play the run or start.....

No he's a really good pass rushing 3 tech. Run stopping DTs are a dime a dozen and they get paid accordingly. Only guys that affect the pass get paid, Fletcher Cox, Chris jones, Heyward, Aaron Donald, etc. So, the guys who get paid to make football decisions clearly disagree with you.

Yes he can be better at run D, but our main issues are elsewhere. Need a better 1/NT, DD lost a step, Werner missed games and was hurt, Honey Badger couldn't tackle and neither could our other Safety.

To call a 2nd year DT who got 7.5 sacks a bust is just beyond stupid.

Also, what do you mean by 'start'?

He had 709 snaps, Shepherd had 568, Saunders had 461, Ridgeway had 264. He played ~70% of all D snaps. That's a really high number for a big guy. I'm starting to think you have no clue about any of this.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

Still didn’t answer my question. How would his responsibilities as a 3tech in a 3-4 under 1 gap system differ than in a 4-3 3 tech? I’d argue a 3-4 defensive end 3 tech has less run responsibilities than in a 3-4 with there being more defenders at the line. It’s the entire reason most DT/DE tweeters are used in the 3-4 DE position.

Also most of his run defense woes were due to him being forced to play nose tackle in the nickel so cam Jordan could move inside to 3 tech. Make Bresee a permanent 3 tech and he will be fine.

It seemed a bit of a stretch to say that his run defense woes were only because he lined up at NT, but I wanted to check his snaps to see how many times he lined up over as a nose. For a baseline of the player/position he's going to play I pulled up Jalen Carter.

Carter played NT 18 times last year
Bresee 66, down from the 84 his rookie year.

50 fewer snaps at NT probably helps him not be in bad position, but I can't say adding those 50 snaps to 3Tech suddenly makes him a better run defender either.

 

[TruSaint]

It seemed a bit of a stretch to say that his run defense woes were only because he lined up at NT, but I wanted to check his snaps to see how many times he lined up over as a nose. For a baseline of the player/position he's going to play I pulled up Jalen Carter.

Carter played NT 18 times last year
Bresee 66, down from the 84 his rookie year.

50 fewer snaps at NT probably helps him not be in bad position, but I can't say adding those 50 snaps to 3Tech suddenly makes him a better run defender either.

Oh I’m not saying he’s a good run defender, I’m just saying he’ll be facing less double teams usually at 3tech so it’ll at least help. I’d rather someone who is weak be the run playing the 3 than the 1. Someone who isn’t good vs the run, I’d rather play to his strengths and put him in a position to succeed. I’m not saying playing NT is the reason, I’m just saying it exacerbates it.

 

[Rouxble]

It seemed a bit of a stretch to say that his run defense woes were only because he lined up at NT, but I wanted to check his snaps to see how many times he lined up over as a nose. For a baseline of the player/position he's going to play I pulled up Jalen Carter.

Carter played NT 18 times last year
Bresee 66, down from the 84 his rookie year.

50 fewer snaps at NT probably helps him not be in bad position, but I can't say adding those 50 snaps to 3Tech suddenly makes him a better run defender either.

Here is some data from a source that identifies snaps by alignment:


What I noticed when looking at the A-gap snaps for Bresee (0, 1, 2i), he was rarely in run defense on those plays. On 139 snaps, he only saw a running play on 26 plays (19%), which means he was likely rarely moved inside on early downs.

 

[Bayou_City]

No he's a really good pass rushing 3 tech. Run stopping DTs are a dime a dozen and they get paid accordingly. Only guys that affect the pass get paid, Fletcher Cox, Chris jones, Heyward, Aaron Donald, etc. So, the guys who get paid to make football decisions clearly disagree with you.

Yes he can be better at run D, but our main issues are elsewhere. Need a better 1/NT, DD lost a step, Werner missed games and was hurt, Honey Badger couldn't tackle and neither could our other Safety.

To call a 2nd year DT who got 7.5 sacks a bust is just beyond stupid.

Also, what do you mean by 'start'?

He had 709 snaps, Shepherd had 568, Saunders had 461, Ridgeway had 264. He played ~70% of all D snaps. That's a really high number for a big guy. I'm starting to think you have no clue about any of this.

According to this year...run stopping was our issue with the dline..

Keep giving a 1st round draft pick a pass.....Imma enjoy watching this board eventually turn on him cause this year the game threads were heading there...his saving grace was the blocked fg

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

Oh I’m not saying he’s a good run defender, I’m just saying he’ll be facing less double teams usually at 3tech so it’ll at least help. I’d rather someone who is weak be the run playing the 3 than the 1. Someone who isn’t good vs the run, I’d rather play to his strengths and put him in a position to succeed. I’m not saying playing NT is the reason, I’m just saying it exacerbates it.

touche. I'm comparing him to Jalen Carter and, though I don't like his length, Bresee is starting to seem more like an End than Tackle.

Carter was 6'3 315 (33 1/1 inch arms) at the combine, Bresse 6'5 295 (32 1/2 inch arms). That weight differential is substantial and may explain why he's not been as effective in run defense as an interior defender. Jalens running mate at DE/DT was Milton Williams. He played the LDE position and his playing weight was closer to 291.

Both Williams and his backup Moro Ojomo (LDE) accounted for roughly 290 snaps OT (over the tackle/assuming 5tech) and they combined for 600+ snaps at DT.

Carter and his backup Thomas Booker (RDE) accounted for 206 snaps OT and 700 + snaps at DT.

So that Data suggest that the LDE in that scheme plays 90-100 more snaps OT than they do as a true DT. This may ultimately be Bresee's home and we may have to look into getting a new base 3Tech and 1 Tech. The positive in this is that we will natually get bigger on the LOS. Bresee actually played 137 snaps OT about 60 fewer than Carter, so if you remove those 50+ NT snaps and add them to OT snaps he should be at home.

All that to say. Bresee fits as a LDE next year and we should be looking at upgrading our NT/RDE and that RDE is usually in the 305-315 area.

 

[Snakehead]

touche. I'm comparing him to Jalen Carter and, though I don't like his length, Bresee is starting to seem more like an End than Tackle.

Carter was 6'3 315 (33 1/1 inch arms) at the combine, Bresse 6'5 295 (32 1/2 inch arms). That weight differential is substantial and may explain why he's not been as effective in run defense as an interior defender. Jalens running mate at DE/DT was Milton Williams. He played the LDE position and his playing weight was closer to 291.

Both Williams and his backup Moro Ojomo (LDE) accounted for roughly 290 snaps OT (over the tackle/assuming 5tech) and they combined for 600+ snaps at DT.

Carter and his backup Thomas Booker (RDE) accounted for 206 snaps OT and 700 + snaps at DT.

So that Data suggest that the LDE in that scheme plays 90-100 more snaps OT than they do as a true DT. This may ultimately be Bresee's home and we may have to look into getting a new base 3Tech and 1 Tech. The positive in this is that we will natually get bigger on the LOS. Bresee actually played 137 snaps OT about 60 fewer than Carter, so if you remove those 50+ NT snaps and add them to OT snaps he should be at home.

All that to say. Bresee fits as a LDE next year and we should be looking at upgrading our NT/RDE and that RDE is usually in the 305-315 area.

Thanks for this info. I'm going to do some draft with this in mind. I've been doing some with the thought of drafting Walker as a DE and someone like Black as a NT allowing Bresee to play DE as well.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

As it stands based on the way Philly lined up.

LDE - Bresee
RDE - Nathan Shepherd
NT - Bink
WLB - ?
RILB - Werner
LILB - Davis
Sam - ?

Josh Sweat (LOLB according to EPSN) dropped in coverage 34 times.
Nolan Smith(ROLB according to ESPN) dropped in coverage 45 times.

PFF has them reversed but either way the scheme doesn't drop (coverage snaps) it's LB's much, only as a changeup. Granderson dropped 32 times last year so he technically played as a rush OLB. Though he saw an uptick in OT(over tackle) snaps and I think that number should come down. Young dropped (20) times last year and Cam dropped (8)

By those #'s Cam Jordan shouldn't be starting at LOLB or ROLB and instead should be primarly used on 3rd downs because you don't want him playing in reverse. I'd argue having him in a Brandon Graham role, but if not you'd have him as whichever LB drops fewest in the scheme. So for that he'd be the SLB and Granderson would be your WLB.

I think if we're drafting today you need some else at Edge and you need someone at DT. I thought Bink outplayed Shepherd last year but he may be a casualty and we may bring back Ridgeway who is bigger and longer than Bink. Passing on NT might not be the worst thing even though I know guys are big on some of the names there it's also a position that plays maybe 20% of the snaps a game. Those resources could go elsewhere.

1st year NT's also don't make a huge impact. The scheme also isn't a heavy blitz scheme, though it does send 5 as a regular changeup. More importatnly because it's a match zone scheme it puts a premium on having guys who can effect the passer. I don't know that we have enough firepower there and someone like Mykel Williams could be an Aldon Smith type player for us.