COVID-19 Outbreak Information Updates (Reboot) [over 150.000,000 US cases (est.), 6,422,520 US hospitilizations, 1,148,691 US deaths.] (2 Viewers)

[SaintInBucLand]

Actually I put the caveat in saying IF the study is correct already

Furthermore, as I stated, hormonal changes in response to the body breaking down nutrients stalls autophagy.

Before I say this, let me once again reiterate that I am am vaxxed and boostered.

People in here who are questioning the science behind fasting and autophagy had no problem accepting the vaccines at face value.

There was far more evidence of the results of fasting and autophagy than there was on the effectiveness and side effects of the vaccines and yet anybody who questions the vaccines gets bashed.

There is a huge double standard there

They only follow the science when it benefits their personal belief structures. While there are many medical professionals who support and encourage the proven benefits of fasting, there are also a great number of them who are inherently against fasting because it's a threat to their cash cow in the form of medical treatments and big pharma being able to make billions from drugs that treat symptoms without ever getting at the root of the problem.

 

[Arathrael]

Actually I put the caveat in saying IF the study is correct already

Read it again. I didn't say "you're assuming the study is correct"; I said your understanding of what the study would mean if it's correct was wrong. And I said why, linking to the actual study.

Furthermore, as I stated, hormonal changes in response to the body breaking down nutrients stalls autophagy.

Again, that's incorrect. Snacking does not stop autophagy, which still occurs under nutrient-rich conditions, particularly in the form of selective autophagy such as mitophagy.

Have you actually read any serious research into autophagy, or are you getting what you think you know second-hand from, for example, sites about fasting?

Before I say this, let me once again reiterate that I am am vaxxed and boostered.

People in here who are questioning the science behind fasting and autophagy had no problem accepting the vaccines at face value.

There was far more evidence of the results of fasting and autophagy than there was on the effectiveness and side effects of the vaccines and yet anybody who questions the vaccines gets bashed.

Great that you're vaxxed and boosted.

Not great that you're apparently unaware there was vastly more evidence of substantially higher quality on the effectiveness and side effects of the vaccines, even at the time of approval before continued assessment, than there is for starvation-induced autophagy as a treatment for, well, pretty much anything.

There is a huge double standard there

No. There's a few people confusing their own lack of comprehension of highly complex subjects with reality.

 

[Dago]

Read it again. I didn't say "you're assuming the study is correct"; I said your understanding of what the study would mean if it's correct was wrong. And I said why, linking to the actual study.


Again, that's incorrect. Snacking does not stop autophagy, which still occurs under nutrient-rich conditions, particularly in the form of selective autophagy such as mitophagy.

Have you actually read any serious research into autophagy, or are you getting what you think you know second-hand from, for example, sites about fasting?


Great that you're vaxxed and boosted.

Not great that you're apparently unaware there was vastly more evidence of substantially higher quality on the effectiveness and side effects of the vaccines, even at the time of approval before continued assessment, than there is for starvation-induced autophagy as a treatment for, well, pretty much anything.


No. There's a few people confusing their own lack of comprehension of highly complex subjects with reality.

You present all that as fact. Care to post proof?

 

[SaintInBucLand]

Scientific papers on the benefits of fasting.

Intermittent fasting vs daily calorie restriction for type 2 diabetes prevention: a review of human findings

Intermittent fasting (IF) regimens have gained considerable popularity in recent years, as some people find these diets easier to follow than traditio…

www.sciencedirect.com

Fasting: Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications

Fasting has been practiced for millennia, but only recently studies have shed light on its role in adaptive cellular responses that reduce oxidative damage and inflammation, optimize energy metabolism and bolster cellular protection. In lower eukaryotes, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Effects of Intermittent Energy Restriction on Indices of Cardiometabolic Health

ibimapublishing.com

Beneficial effects of intermittent fasting and caloric restriction on the cardiovascular and cerebrovascular systems

Intermittent fasting (IF; reduced meal frequency) and caloric restriction (CR) extend lifespan and increase resistance to age-related diseases in rode…

www.sciencedirect.com

Alternate day calorie restriction improves clinical findings and reduces markers of oxidative stress and inflammation in overweight adults with moderate asthma - PubMed

Asthma is an increasingly common disorder responsible for considerable morbidity and mortality. Although obesity is a risk factor for asthma and weight loss can improve symptoms, many patients do not adhere to low calorie diets and the impact of dietary restriction on the disease process is...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Arathrael]

You present all that as fact. Care to post proof?

In my post responding to you, I cited the actual study to support what I said about it. When I said autophagy is far more complicated than you're suggesting, I linked to an overview of autophagy published in a peer-reviewed journal. That also substantiates that autophagy occurs at a basal level, and can be induced in multiple ways. And I linked to a recent study showing how viruses can induce mitophagy.

All of that you appear to have ignored.

Meanwhile, for your claim that starvation-induced autophagy would treat long Covid if it involves mitochondrial damage, and all your (largely inaccurate) claims about autophagy, you've given... a link to a press release about the award for the 2016 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine, that you apparently didn't understand because it doesn't support anything you've said, stating as it does that autophagy also occurs in response to things other than starvation, and not, in any way, advocating for starvation-induced autophagy as therapy.

 

[Arathrael]

Scientific papers on the benefits of fasting.

Intermittent fasting vs daily calorie restriction for type 2 diabetes prevention: a review of human findings

Intermittent fasting (IF) regimens have gained considerable popularity in recent years, as some people find these diets easier to follow than traditio…

www.sciencedirect.com

Fasting: Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications

Fasting has been practiced for millennia, but only recently studies have shed light on its role in adaptive cellular responses that reduce oxidative damage and inflammation, optimize energy metabolism and bolster cellular protection. In lower eukaryotes, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Effects of Intermittent Energy Restriction on Indices of Cardiometabolic Health

ibimapublishing.com

Beneficial effects of intermittent fasting and caloric restriction on the cardiovascular and cerebrovascular systems

Intermittent fasting (IF; reduced meal frequency) and caloric restriction (CR) extend lifespan and increase resistance to age-related diseases in rode…

www.sciencedirect.com

Alternate day calorie restriction improves clinical findings and reduces markers of oxidative stress and inflammation in overweight adults with moderate asthma - PubMed

Asthma is an increasingly common disorder responsible for considerable morbidity and mortality. Although obesity is a risk factor for asthma and weight loss can improve symptoms, many patients do not adhere to low calorie diets and the impact of dietary restriction on the disease process is...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I'm not going to go into each of those because, as I've repeatedly said, fasting may be effective for some things, for some individuals, depending on their circumstances.

What none of those studies support is the notion that fasting is effective for everything (and in particular Covid-related conditions), for everyone and can't cause harm or make conditions worse. Because that's not reality.

 

[gboudx]

There's a separate thread for fasting. Can all of this be moved there please?

 

[DaveXA]

There's a separate thread for fasting. Can all of this be moved there please?

Well, if it's related to the relationship between fasting and Covid, I think it's a valid discussion here. That said, there are clearly benefits to fasting for holistic health, but in terms of Covid, I don't really know to what extent.

 

[bigdaddysaints]

Well, if it's related to the relationship between fasting and Covid, I think it's a valid discussion here. That said, there are clearly benefits to fasting for holistic health, but in terms of Covid, I don't really know to what extent.

Is it a discussion about fasting and Covid or fasting and Long Covid contitions. Isn't there a thread on Long Covid also? Maybe it belongs there.

 

[DaveXA]

Is it a discussion about fasting and Covid or fasting and Long Covid contitions. Isn't there a thread on Long Covid also? Maybe it belongs there.

I don't know, I actually like the discussion here. I know it's a bit of a hot topic, but it is informative. I think both Dago and Arathrael make some valid and interesting points.

 

[SaintInBucLand]

I'm not going to go into each of those because, as I've repeatedly said, fasting may be effective for some things, for some individuals, depending on their circumstances.

What none of those studies support is the notion that fasting is effective for everything (and in particular Covid-related conditions), for everyone and can't cause harm or make conditions worse. Because that's not reality.

It worked extremely well for me, and many others I have met in my journey to find answers with long covid. Also I find your attempt to belittle autophagy induced by fasting by calling it starvation induced autophagy puerile and shows if you cannot come with intelligent discussion, instead you attack it with hyperbole.

And your counter point to the studies I posted is comical, at no point did myself or Dago say that fasting works for everything, nice straw man to attack there. But what those studies DO show are many common metabolic health issues that have been shown to be improved with fasting.

 

[Arathrael]

It worked extremely well for me, and many others I have met in my journey to find answers with long covid. Also I find your attempt to belittle autophagy induced by fasting by calling it starvation induced autophagy puerile and shows if you cannot come with intelligent discussion, instead you attack it with hyperbole.

As I've already pointed out, the problem is not you saying you think it worked for you, but your irrationally denying that other people found it made their symptoms worse.

And starvation-induced autophagy is a correct term for autophagy induced by starvation, amazingly enough. It's literal, not hyperbolic at all. See, for example: https://scholar.google.co.uk/schola...autophagy&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

And your counter point to the studies I posted is comical, at no point did myself or Dago say that fasting works for everything, nice straw man to attack there. But what those studies DO show are many common metabolic health issues that have been shown to be improved with fasting.

If you're agreeing that fasting may be effective for some things, for some individuals, depending on their circumstances, but not for everything, you're going a really strange way about it.

And no, you can't take studies about "weight loss and type 2 diabetes risk reduction in overweight and obese populations" that conclude "more research is required before solid conclusions can be reached", for example, and conclude that fasting would be universally beneficial without risk of harm in patients with long Covid.

 

[Dago]

In my post responding to you, I cited the actual study to support what I said about it. When I said autophagy is far more complicated than you're suggesting, I linked to an overview of autophagy published in a peer-reviewed journal. That also substantiates that autophagy occurs at a basal level, and can be induced in multiple ways. And I linked to a recent study showing how viruses can induce mitophagy.

All of that you appear to have ignored.

Meanwhile, for your claim that starvation-induced autophagy would treat long Covid if it involves mitochondrial damage, and all your (largely inaccurate) claims about autophagy, you've given... a link to a press release about the award for the 2016 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine, that you apparently didn't understand because it doesn't support anything you've said, stating as it does that autophagy also occurs in response to things other than starvation, and not, in any way, advocating for starvation-induced autophagy as therapy.

Your information is not current

1) You don't even know the basics in causing autophagy to occur. Caloric restriction is not what does it....one can restrict calories and still be eating foods that raise blood sugar and insulin. Glycogen in the liver must be depleted as well.

2) The study you posted is over 8 years old. Why would you choose to believe what is presented in a study done in 2014 while ignoring the more recent research I posted that won a Nobel Prize in 2018?

 

[Arathrael]

Your information is not current

1) You don't even know the basics in causing autophagy to occur. Caloric restriction is not what does it....one can restrict calories and still be eating foods that raise blood sugar and insulin. Glycogen in the liver must be depleted as well.

The information is current. I linked to that paper because it's a pretty comprehensive overview published in a peer reviewed journal. If you're going to assert that we've completely changed our understanding of autophagy since 2014, you're going to have to substantiate that.

And again, you're talking about starvation-induced autophagy, and again, autophagy occurs at basal levels and can be induced in other ways including in nutrient rich scenarios, which are not prevented by snacking.

2) The study you posted is over 8 years old. Why would you choose to believe what is presented in a study done in 2014 while ignoring the more recent research I posted that won a Nobel Prize in 2018?

...

The 2016 Nobel Prize was awarded to Yoshinori Ohsumi for his work in discovering mechanisms of autophagy which he carried out in the nineties.

Could you please stop? It's getting painful.

 

[Dago]

The information is current. I linked to that paper because it's a pretty comprehensive overview published in a peer reviewed journal. If you're going to assert that we've completely changed our understanding of autophagy since 2014, you're going to have to substantiate that.

And again, you're talking about starvation-induced autophagy, and again, autophagy occurs at basal levels and can be induced in other ways including in nutrient rich scenarios, which are not prevented by snacking.


...

The 2016 Nobel Prize was awarded to Yoshinori Ohsumi for his work in discovering mechanisms of autophagy which he carried out in the nineties.

Could you please stop? It's getting painful.

So autophagy occurs when high blood sugar and insulin are present as well as glycogen in the liver?