COVID-19 Outbreak (Update: More than 2.9M cases and 132,313 deaths in US) (2 Viewers)

[Goatman Saint]

Also, without trying to get political, we have 2 factions at play. We have one side which seems to want to obey the rules, respects others health and will wear the masks and such and will continue to obey the orders because they believe it’s the right thing to do. Then you have another group of very good people who are totally ignoring any guidelines, threatening store employees that are requiring them to wear masks, heck even threatening with a gun because they told them to wear a mask, gathering in large groups without social distancing, even bringing their small pen.... wait semi automatics to threaten the Michigan state legislature. 2 weeks guys. Two weeks. It’s gonna get fun again. This time with the Rona spread all through the country as a seed.

 

[superchuck500]

Current state of origin analysis:

Where did Covid-19 come from? What we know about its origins

Scientists cast doubt on the Trump-backed theory that the coronavirus escaped from a Chinese lab

www.theguardian.com

 

[J.T.]

I am not going to vouch for this 100%, but there was wind of some of this 2-3 weeks ago from Great Britain when Boris Johnson was in the hospital. This is a leaked report compiled by the "Five Eyes" which is the name of the intelligence-sharing alliance of the five leading English-speaking countries, the US, UK, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. It will be interesting to see how each of these countries sees things in the coming weeks.

"China deliberately suppressed or destroyed evidence of the coronavirus outbreak in an “assault on international transparency’’ that cost tens of thousands of lives, according to a dossier prepared by concerned Western governments on the COVID-19 contagion. "

"The Australian government’s position is that the virus most likely originated in the Wuhan wet market but that there is a remote possibility — a 5 per cent chance — it accidentally leaked from a laboratory."

"The US’s position, according to reports this week, is that it is more likely the virus leaked from a laboratory but it could also have come from a wet market that trades and slaughters wild animals, where other diseases including the H5N1 avian flu and SARS originated."

About the source:

The Daily Telegraph (Sydney) is generally considered to be a more Conservative newspaper, but in no way is a right wing rag, the Liberal Party of Australia, who is control of the government right now (they are further to the right) is probably the equivalent to an moderate Democrat to a liberal Republican in the USA, just more pro business. The Labor Party in Australia (The opposition to the left) would generally be to the left of Bernie Sanders. Australia also has a lot at stake in anything they say against China. They are hugely dependent on China as a market for their raw material exports, so if they are going out and saying anything negative about China, they must really be upset.

No Cookies | Daily Telegraph

No Cookies

www.dailytelegraph.com.au

New York Post Article based on reporting from Australia.

China lied about origin of coronavirus, leaked intelligence report says

A damning dossier leaked from the “Five Eyes” intelligence alliance claims that China lied to the world about human-to-human transmission of the coronavirus, made whistleblowers disappear and refus…

nypost.com

 

[Goatman Saint]

Okay, even if the CDC was shown to be wrong, why SHOULD they lose funding? We NEED scientists researching viruses and analyzing data. We NEED researchers tracking viral hotspots around the planet. We NEED technicians going out into the field and retrieving samples. We NEED coordinators coming up with contingency plans in the event of a outbreak.

IMO, what SHOULD happen IF the CDC was found to have covered something up, is that the Administrators who made that decision should be FIRED, rather than defund the entire CDC organization.

My facetious response to your post was to highlight the “cutting ones nose off to spite your face“ aspect of defunding the CDC.

Defunding the CDC is NOT going to make our future better. Viruses will still exist, and we will still need to study them and plan accordingly.

Because the CDC has a job to do which ideally has nothing to do with politics. It’s science based (imagine that) and works off of evidence. The CDC was pushed tot the side on this also in favor of political lackeys. There was a pandemic plan, it simply wasn’t followed.

People expect perfection out of groups. Look, find someone to have something like this dropped on their laps. The first time a novel virus has shown up like this in 100 years. Of course the message will be inconsistent as the situation develops. It’s not static, things come and go, more information is learned, some which may be contradictory, and some which doesn’t fit social media and TV experts.

This simply goes back to the CDC not being a mouth piece for the administration, and the republicans in general wanting to dismantle public services to benefit corporations and the 1%.

 

[0rion]

Okay, even if the CDC was shown to be wrong, why SHOULD they lose funding? We NEED scientists researching viruses and analyzing data. We NEED researchers tracking viral hotspots around the planet. We NEED technicians going out into the field and retrieving samples. We NEED coordinators coming up with contingency plans in the event of a outbreak.

IMO, what SHOULD happen IF the CDC was found to have covered something up, is that the Administrators who made that decision should be FIRED, rather than defund the entire CDC organization.

My facetious response to your post was to highlight the “cutting ones nose off to spite your face“ aspect of defunding the CDC.

Defunding the CDC is NOT going to make our future better. Viruses will still exist, and we will still need to study them and plan accordingly.

I think we agree on quite a bit. The origin is maybe where we don't agree and that's about it. I do think we need scientists and above all else we need impartial scientists and I think that gets tougher when money and funding get involved. If it was found out that we were intentionally misled on the origin or even that they discovered later it's origin and didn't disclose it I would think all trust is then gone and it would be time to burn it down and start over.
So my problem with the CDC is rooted in their early handling of this. We were short on PPE so they changed requirements to accommodate those shortages. As someone married to a healthcare worker that ticked me off. Changing requirements to fit supply is not what a scientist should do... especially when it's putting my wife and family at risk. That's not science. Lack of PPE doesn't make this virus any less dangerous. It's one thing to be short on PPE which was bad enough but when the CDC says you can wear a bandana it gives the hospital all it needs to send my wife into a covid room with a damn bandana on her face.

 

[Goatman Saint]

I think we agree on quite a bit. The origin is maybe where we don't agree and that's about it. I do think we need scientists and above all else we need impartial scientists and I think that gets tougher when money and funding get involved. If it was found out that we were intentionally misled on the origin or even that they discovered later it's origin and didn't disclose it I would think all trust is then gone and it would be time to burn it down and start over.
So my problem with the CDC is rooted in their early handling of this. We were short on PPE so they changed requirements to accommodate those shortages. As someone married to a healthcare worker that ticked me off. Changing requirements to fit supply is not what a scientist should do... especially when it's putting my wife and family at risk. That's not science. Lack of PPE doesn't make this virus any less dangerous. It's one thing to be short on PPE which was bad enough but when the CDC says you can wear a bandana it gives the hospital all it needs to send my wife into a covid room with a damn bandana on her face.

Now, when you look at what the CDC’s position was it’s a bit clearer. Most viruses and the two previous Corona virus MERS and SARS were only infectious when showing symptoms. So the mask guidelines were put forth with that in mind. Now, once it became a fact that it could be spread asymptomaticly, then they changed the guidelines. Now, even when you step back and look at the facts, viruses are too small to be filtered out by a healthy wearer breathing in. If they are stuck to something, sure, but free floating no. They work to stop the viruses from leaving people who may be asymptomatic carriers by soaking up fluid that the virus is attached to. For that they can be very effective.

Now the fact that health care workers are wearing home made masks, sanitizing single use masks, having to wear masks for two weeks, wearing bandanas, not having correct gear is a frigging tragedy, but that goes back years and was made worse by the flat footed approach to this thing in the beginning. Something that the CDC has no power for, that’s purchasing and storing of supplies for this sort of thing. That’s a function of the government as a whole and I believe the department of homeland security in particular.

 

[DaveXA]

Exactly my viewpoint on this also. I don’t really trust China, nor their numbers at this point. But, a lot of people are making out how the center is 5 miles from a wet market. Now, I have never been there, but I’m reasonable sure that there are a lot of areas in China that are 5 miles away from a wet market. So, I’m not entirely sure as the what this is trying to prove.

Also, in reference to an earlier post about hitting the Midwest, it burned through the major population centers that are more dense and had more exposure in the beginning. It’s now working over to more rural settings as most rounds of colds and flus do. Personal proximity also has a huge factor in its spread. So, not only in the meat packing areas is this blowing up due to the closeness in work conditions and a hundred other faults of the industry, but the fact wages are so low and they hire groups of people that live tighter together in ethnic groups (did I say that PC enough) that not only can they catch it at work, but it’s probably spreading around that tighter knit community where multiple families live together. On the good side though it’s going to force the meat packing industry at least in the short term to clean up their act.

Personally, I'd say the proximity of the lab to wet markets is irrelevant. What matters is that the lab is quite close to where the alleged origins occurred. In a country as large as China, that's relatively close, and while it may be coincidental, it's certainly valid to raise questions about that proximity. It's not like these labs are all over China.

I don't know either way, but I know enough not to trust China on anything Covid related. Their numbers are a universal joke. About as believable as North Korea not having a single case.

So I'm not trusting anything China has to say about their origins. They prevented and still are stalling when it comes to allowing international inspectors to investigate this. Until that happens, conspiracy theories are fair game.

 

[St. Widge]

I know every scientist and their brother has been on record saying this was a naturally occurring thing but there is just no amount of explanation that's going to be able to convince me . . .

That's the same thing all those people who refuse to wear masks, refuse to stay home, and will refuse a vaccine say. It's also the reason we have never seriously done anything about the environment.

And it's also how terrible politicians get elected and stay in office.

 

[DaveXA]

No, it's another example of the WHO telling other people to not get ahead of themselves because the data is incomplete.

This is the full context of the WHO's advice: https://www.who.int/news-room/commentaries/detail/immunity-passports-in-the-context-of-covid-19

They were responding to some governments considering "immunity passports", and advising that: 'At this point in the pandemic, there is not enough evidence about the effectiveness of antibody-mediated immunity to guarantee the accuracy of an “immunity passport” or “risk-free certificate.” People who assume that they are immune to a second infection because they have received a positive test result may ignore public health advice. The use of such certificates may therefore increase the risks of continued transmission. As new evidence becomes available, WHO will update this scientific brief.'

Fair enough. I still think they have political influencers driving some of their recommendations, but if this is a case of responding to changing knowledge related to the virus, then fine.

I'm about getting accurate information out there regardless of the source.

 

[St. Widge]

Okay, even if the CDC was shown to be wrong, why SHOULD they lose funding? We NEED scientists researching viruses and analyzing data. We NEED researchers tracking viral hotspots around the planet. We NEED technicians going out into the field and retrieving samples. We NEED coordinators coming up with contingency plans in the event of a outbreak.

IMO, what SHOULD happen IF the CDC was found to have covered something up, is that the Administrators who made that decision should be FIRED, rather than defund the entire CDC organization.

My facetious response to your post was to highlight the “cutting ones nose off to spite your face“ aspect of defunding the CDC.

Defunding the CDC is NOT going to make our future better. Viruses will still exist, and we will still need to study them and plan accordingly.

If anything, this whole thing proves that we need to be pumping more money into the CDC and research into viruses with the potential to be global pandemics. Maybe had the CDC been better funded they would have done more research on COVID viruses and we may have been much closer to a cure.

 

[St. Widge]

Also, without trying to get political, we have 2 factions at play. We have one side which seems to want to obey the rules, respects others health and will wear the masks and such and will continue to obey the orders because they believe it’s the right thing to do. Then you have another group of very good people

I see what you did there. Lol.

 

[LonghornSaint]

Let me more strongly reinforce my sentiment: If a CDC Administrator made the decision (for whatever reason, maybe political, idk), to cover something up and blatantly lie, not only should they be fired, but have criminal charges brought up, especially if they had solid proof of something they were lying about. This is not a scientist choosing something based on science, but an Administrator who is making the decision. AND, I do not care if that Administrator had scientific training earlier in their life, they are making that decision in the context of being an Administrator.

By Administrators, I am referring to the higher ups at the CDC, those who are in charge of coming up with and implementing policy to this country, not the secretaries, not the facilities managers, not the custodians.

So my problem with the CDC is rooted in their early handling of this. We were short on PPE so they changed requirements to accommodate those shortages. As someone married to a healthcare worker that ticked me off. Changing requirements to fit supply is not what a scientist should do... especially when it's putting my wife and family at risk. That's not science. Lack of PPE doesn't make this virus any less dangerous. It's one thing to be short on PPE which was bad enough but when the CDC says you can wear a bandana it gives the hospital all it needs to send my wife into a covid room with a damn bandana on her face.

I totally understand your anger, and I agree, the way the CDC handled this was bad. Again, that is in the context of Administration people making decisions, and setting policy, which technically is their job. This time, they did it poorly, and maybe they should be replaced. But without firing all the working scientists and technicians who have incredible amounts of education and training. Another reason for this would be to protect from the loss of continuity, in other words the transfer of working knowledge, from 1 generation of scientists to the next.

 

[superchuck500]

Just got back from the Wal-Mart.

I went to Harris Teeter last Sunday and it looked like about 40 to 50 percent of customers had masks. It’s an older demographic here so I wasn’t surprised.

Not at the Wal-Mart today. I was one of maybe 10% with masks. And weren’t following the directional instructions or distancing at all.

 

[LonghornSaint]

Personally, I'd say the proximity of the lab to wet markets is irrelevant. What matters is that the lab is quite close to where the alleged origins occurred. In a country as large as China, that's relatively close, and while it may be coincidental, it's certainly valid to raise questions about that proximity. It's not like these labs are all over China.

I don't know either way, but I know enough not to trust China on anything Covid related. Their numbers are a universal joke. About as believable as North Korea not having a single case.

So I'm not trusting anything China has to say about their origins. They prevented and still are stalling when it comes to allowing international inspectors to investigate this. Until that happens, conspiracy theories are fair game.

I bet that wherever in China that there are large cities, there are also universities and research centers of many different types, and that therefore they ALL are in SOME sort of proximity to wet markets. So, I contend for someone to raise the point that THIS particular lab is approx X miles from a wet market (where some believe was ground zero) is just stoking the coals of conspiracy theories.

I totally agree with you about not believing China (i.e. Chinese government) with the numbers they release, and that they are not being forthcoming. However, when credible scientists around the globe are mostly in agreement in debunking a particular conspiracy theory, we should acknowledge this.

A US researcher who worked with a Wuhan virology lab gives 4 reasons why a coronavirus leak would be extremely unlikely

A fringe theory posits that the coronavirus accidentally leaked from a Wuhan lab. But a US researcher says there's no evidence for that.

www.businessinsider.com

from that article:
Since 2014, Shi's group at the WIV has received nearly $600,000 from a multi-million dollar, five-year grant funded by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases to research the spillover of bat coronaviruses. The grant, which is managed by EcoHealth Alliance, was renewed for another five years in 2019.

However, after being questioned about that funding at a White House briefing on April 17, President Trump said his administration would "end that grant very quickly."

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face...

 

[0rion]

Just got back from the Wal-Mart.

I went to Harris Teeter last Sunday and it looked like about 40 to 50 percent of customers had masks. It’s an older demographic here so I wasn’t surprised.

Not at the Wal-Mart today. I was one of maybe 10% with masks. And weren’t following the directional instructions or distancing at all.

I went to Menards this morning. After a trip up there in the afternoon several weeks ago that was packed I've decided first thing in the morning is the only time I'll go. Anyhow....big sign at the door saying masks were required and an employee there to police it. Same sign also said they would provide you one and had a price but I forget what it was....cheap though....$1.50 or $2.50. something like that.