COVID-19 Outbreak (Update: More than 2.9M cases and 132,313 deaths in US) (16 Viewers)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Eeyore

Flucifer
Joined
Aug 1, 1997
Messages
16,589
Reaction score
8,449
Age
49
Location
Ersetu
Offline
Sticky Post
UPDATED TRACKER LINKS:





It shouldn't be a big deal but with a large number of people unable to afford healthcare, and the anti vax crowd growing there's a small chance that this could be interesting.
 
Last edited:

Brennan77

Bass Manager
VIP Subscribing Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2001
Messages
47,097
Reaction score
20,351
Location
The Channel
Offline
I do think churches are different, particularly from stores. I average maybe 10-15 minutes in a store. So I'm not there near as long as in a church. Also, during worship, everyone is singing and that has potentially been a big culprit in the spread of the virus. Entire choirs, church and otherwise, have been sickened by all singing in proximity. I really think the length of exposure dramatically increases the risk of getting infected. Like nurses who have gotten severely sick from working long and exhausting hours with covid patients.

I think it's too soon for most churches to start in person services, but the states will still have to apply the law equally to all organizations or they'll have problems.
The point works both ways. It's ridiculous that I can walk into rouses without a mask and with no restrictions to the number of people inside yet a church with a 1200 person capacity was restricted to either zero or 10 persons. But your point of time spent is absolutely valid, as what we do know suggests that length of exposure plays a big part.

From a Catholic perspective, this should not be cause to close churches or restrict access to the sacraments. Reasonable accommodation can be made to reduce risks. Bishops have dispensed your obligation to attend. Distancing is easy to accomplish by limiting to percentages of capacity and roping off pews to physically force the reduction in seating. Families can sit together in the middle while single or double attendees can sit further out to the sides. Catholics aren't really enthusiastic about our singing anyway so it's doubtful to be a problem. Choirs can be suspended in favor of an organ and a cantor favoring traditional sacred music which is less group sing oriented. Distribution of the Eucharist can be done by the priest alone rather than lay ministers, and of course can be limited to the species of bread if necessary. The priest can wear a shield or mask to prevent himself from expelling air during distribution of communion. No passing of collection baskets, etc.

It can and should be done. The right to pray in your house of worship is essential. And to many forms of faith, such as Catholic or Orthodox, the physical element and proximity cannot be replaced. You can't do it virtually through live streaming etc.
 

dtc

VIP Subscribing Member
VIP Contributor
Joined
Dec 26, 2006
Messages
29,150
Reaction score
28,070
Location
Redneck Riviera
Offline
I think it's unconstitutional (dormant commerce clause and 'free-travel' concepts). The state (FL) may have been able to express a legitimate interest in limiting activity originating from Louisiana early on when LA was having a significant outbreak and most other states were not. But not anymore.
The same folks who are loudest in blaming Democrats for the shutdown and hollering about losing their freedoms here in Florida are the most vocal supporters of Desantis's unconstitutional travel ban.

I find irony in that, but it's sad.
 

St. Widge

Socially Distant
VIP Contributor
Joined
Mar 14, 2002
Messages
36,323
Reaction score
18,853
Age
49
Location
4th Ward Soldier
Offline
The point works both ways. It's ridiculous that I can walk into rouses without a mask and with no restrictions to the number of people inside yet a church with a 1200 person capacity was restricted to either zero or 10 persons. But your point of time spent is absolutely valid, as what we do know suggests that length of exposure plays a big part.

From a Catholic perspective, this should not be cause to close churches or restrict access to the sacraments. Reasonable accommodation can be made to reduce risks. Bishops have dispensed your obligation to attend. Distancing is easy to accomplish by limiting to percentages of capacity and roping off pews to physically force the reduction in seating. Families can sit together in the middle while single or double attendees can sit further out to the sides. Catholics aren't really enthusiastic about our singing anyway so it's doubtful to be a problem. Choirs can be suspended in favor of an organ and a cantor favoring traditional sacred music which is less group sing oriented. Distribution of the Eucharist can be done by the priest alone rather than lay ministers, and of course can be limited to the species of bread if necessary. The priest can wear a shield or mask to prevent himself from expelling air during distribution of communion. No passing of collection baskets, etc.

It can and should be done. The right to pray in your house of worship is essential. And to many forms of faith, such as Catholic or Orthodox, the physical element and proximity cannot be replaced. You can't do it virtually through live streaming etc.
I agree that Churches should be allowed to operate with the types of precautions that you are talking about. (I'm not sure that was true when New Orleans was a hot spot, but I think it's likely true now.) And, FWIW, the case that was decided in Baton Rouge against Tony Spell, was based on Spell just totally ignoring the Governor's orders and opening with no precautions in place at all. I suspect the result would be different if a church opened with social distancing, masks, limits on occupancy, etc.

Also, after going to Dorignac's today, I think Churches are actually safer in many ways if they are taking proper precautions. At best 60% were wearing masks and it may have been more like 50%. Most were ignoring social distancing and the place was packed with people buying snacks, beer, and other stuff for Memorial Day BBQs. Even the Jefferson Parish Sheriff's Deputy who was standing guard right by the door where everyone had to pass within a few feet of him was not wearing a mask. I get that I wasn't around anyone for more than 10 minutes but it sure seemed like a risky place to be.

That being said, I do think groceries are safer if proper precautions are being taken.
 
Last edited:

AARPSaint

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
Gold VIP Contributor
Joined
Mar 6, 1998
Messages
24,150
Reaction score
17,864
Age
72
Location
West Chester, PA
Online
Holiday weekends are a serious problem in small places like Dorignac's. I walked into the Amish Market today, saw that it was impossible to keep distance, and left for the supermarket, where I knew I could distance myself from other shoppers. And everyone wears a mask around here.
I await the Philadelphia Archdiocese word on masses this weekend. I"d like to see if Trump tries to override the Catholic Church. 🍿
 

St. Widge

Socially Distant
VIP Contributor
Joined
Mar 14, 2002
Messages
36,323
Reaction score
18,853
Age
49
Location
4th Ward Soldier
Offline
Holiday weekends are a serious problem in small places like Dorignac's. I walked into the Amish Market today, saw that it was impossible to keep distance, and left for the supermarket, where I knew I could distance myself from other shoppers. And everyone wears a mask around here.
I await the Philadelphia Archdiocese word on masses this weekend. I"d like to see if Trump tries to override the Catholic Church. 🍿

I think it's time I found a new grocery store. I have gone to Dorignac's because it's convenient for me and I like the selection, but their prices have really risen since this started, likely higher than is explainable by their increased costs, and I would rather keep my tax dollars in Orleans Parish especially in the current economic climate. I just have to find a place in the city that has what I need and actually cares enough to enforce mask policies. I know Costco does it, but you just can't get all your groceries there.

As for Trump Vs. the Catholic Church. That sure would be interesting. The two are very unlikely allies and the Church in general probably only tolerates him because his SCOTUS picks would likely be Pro-Life. But I doubt the Church is a big fan of him.
 

Loose Cannon

Tangibles
VIP Contributor
Joined
May 26, 2002
Messages
29,240
Reaction score
8,387
Location
Austin, TX
Offline
I don't disagree that a concerted effort from a central authority would greatly help our information, data, and reactions to all this. But I don't think it would have allowed us to have all the answers this quickly. It's not like every virologist and virus researcher in the country isn't working on this. And, I guarantee that every single member of Big Pharma and small pharma is pushing hard for their researchers to come up with a vaccine or treatment. Not to mention every epidemiologist that knows anything about communicable diseases.

But, as to your specific issue, how can you get that facts if kids aren't in day cares right now? At best day cares really opened up two weeks ago usually at much reduced capacity, one week for many, and it takes at least 14 days, if not more for people to start to show symptoms.

And you can't really know the true answer that quickly since you can't control the variables. The answer could vary greatly depending on the size of the day care, the time of year, the number of kids, the number of care givers, how much time they spend outside, the age of the children, whether the staff are wearing masks, what kind of masks the staff are wearing, whether they are being kept 6 feet apart, whether they are breaking them into small groups that are strictly kept apart, what percentage of capacity they are allowing based on useable square footage, etc. It really would take years of epidemiological data to come to a consensus on something like that. You just can't make a close to valid conclusion regarding something with that many variables in a week or even in months. Hell, it took many years to even come to a consensus on cigarette smoking, benzine, NORMAL, asbestos exposure, Raydon exposure, etc. People certainly suspected that they were bad for you, but it took a long time to get enough data to draw scientific conclusions that they actually were bad and caused cancer. And it took even longer to figure out what level of exposure you needed to attribute the cancer to smoking, asbestos, Raydon, etc. and what the safe levels of exposure are. Not to mention what procedures were necessary to limit exposure and how much risk remained.

I mean, in the end, you know the answer to this question in general. It obviously increases the risk because it increases the number of possible infection vectors. But nobody is going to be able to give you a percentage.

There are still kids in day care all over the place. My day care has 1,000 centers and 50% remain open.

You're misrepresenting my ask. I'm not asking for exact answers or a Magic 8 ball. I don't care about how far away the kids were kept, their outside time, what kind of masks staff is wearing, or policy. And time of year, center size, age of kids, day care size, number of caregivers and the rest are data points that are 100% attainable with the desire and resources.

And no, I don't know the answer to the question, despite you passing speculation off as an answer. There is data out there that shows that kids aren't really vectors for the virus, which would mean that it's not really a risk at all. Then there are some rogue data points and random scientists saying "that's not true".

Even if the answer isn't exact (which, again, I never asked for), the American public shouldn't be relying on scattered studies from Iceland, A single Italian City, Germany, and The Netherlands for decision support that could change their financial and mental health course for a long time and/or kill them.

We should have our own ****ing data because we are the most powerful and resource-rich country on Earth, and because outside of China we have the largest amount of data to mine. But we have become a country where a significant portion of the population including some if its leaders are literally anti-science, which leads us to where we are now.

It's absurd that we're not even trying and the notion that "it has to be perfect or it's not worth doing!" that you seem to be pushing on me, despite that never being a part of my original post, is counterproductive to keeping our people safe.

You're my boy but I don't really understand where you're trying to go with this. You're basically misrepresenting my ask then saying "it'll never be perfect so screw it". You did correctly assess that I'm pissed because it's personal and it's a highly stressful decision to make, however.
 
Last edited:

DaveXA

I love the Lord!
Staff member
Super Moderator
Joined
Sep 6, 2001
Messages
30,917
Reaction score
18,694
Age
49
Location
Vienna, VA via Lafayette
Offline
The point works both ways. It's ridiculous that I can walk into rouses without a mask and with no restrictions to the number of people inside yet a church with a 1200 person capacity was restricted to either zero or 10 persons. But your point of time spent is absolutely valid, as what we do know suggests that length of exposure plays a big part.

From a Catholic perspective, this should not be cause to close churches or restrict access to the sacraments. Reasonable accommodation can be made to reduce risks. Bishops have dispensed your obligation to attend. Distancing is easy to accomplish by limiting to percentages of capacity and roping off pews to physically force the reduction in seating. Families can sit together in the middle while single or double attendees can sit further out to the sides. Catholics aren't really enthusiastic about our singing anyway so it's doubtful to be a problem. Choirs can be suspended in favor of an organ and a cantor favoring traditional sacred music which is less group sing oriented. Distribution of the Eucharist can be done by the priest alone rather than lay ministers, and of course can be limited to the species of bread if necessary. The priest can wear a shield or mask to prevent himself from expelling air during distribution of communion. No passing of collection baskets, etc.

It can and should be done. The right to pray in your house of worship is essential. And to many forms of faith, such as Catholic or Orthodox, the physical element and proximity cannot be replaced. You can't do it virtually through live streaming etc.
I'll just emphasize again that churches are not equivalent to stores. The dynamics, risk factors and viral load exposure are much different. Churches are closer to concerts and festivals than stores as people are gathered in one place for sustained periods of time.

The rest of your post is well-taken and I agree that as long as prudent measures are taken, I don't think anyone really has a problem with churches meeting. Pastors need to be smart and plan well and ensure everyone is safe.

I agree church is essential for our spiritual and mental health and gathering with others is a key part of Christian and other religious life.

As for Rouses and any other store allowing people to come and go without any true safety practices in effect are irresponsible and are part of the problem. It's ridiculous they they're allowed to operate like that. That said, I won't be visiting stores that are that kind of irresponsible.
 

buzd

party lamp
Staff member
Tech-Admin
Joined
Jan 11, 2002
Messages
31,838
Reaction score
24,788
Age
49
Location
Duncan Plaza
Offline
I think it's time I found a new grocery store. I have gone to Dorignac's because it's convenient for me and I like the selection, but their prices have really risen since this started, likely higher than is explainable by their increased costs, and I would rather keep my tax dollars in Orleans Parish especially in the current economic climate. I just have to find a place in the city that has what I need and actually cares enough to enforce mask policies. I know Costco does it, but you just can't get all your groceries there.

As for Trump Vs. the Catholic Church. That sure would be interesting. The two are very unlikely allies and the Church in general probably only tolerates him because his SCOTUS picks would likely be Pro-Life. But I doubt the Church is a big fan of him.
I would say mask wearers were up to about 85% at Rouse's today, and Whole Foods was pretty close to 100.
 

guidomerkinsrules

W H A T E V I R
VIP Contributor
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
57,842
Reaction score
92,271
Location
by the cemeteries
Offline
I think it's time I found a new grocery store. I have gone to Dorignac's because it's convenient for me and I like the selection, but their prices have really risen since this started, likely higher than is explainable by their increased costs, and I would rather keep my tax dollars in Orleans Parish especially in the current economic climate. I just have to find a place in the city that has what I need and actually cares enough to enforce mask policies. I know Costco does it, but you just can't get all your groceries there.

As for Trump Vs. the Catholic Church. That sure would be interesting. The two are very unlikely allies and the Church in general probably only tolerates him because his SCOTUS picks would likely be Pro-Life. But I doubt the Church is a big fan of him.
Breaux mart on magazine
 

guidomerkinsrules

W H A T E V I R
VIP Contributor
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
57,842
Reaction score
92,271
Location
by the cemeteries
Offline
I agree church is essential for our spiritual and mental health and gathering with others is a key part of Christian and other religious life.
i'm curious about this
what can you not get watching from home than you need to be in a church for?
- legit question, i'm trying to figure it out with school work as well
 

Saintaholic

<><><><><><><><><><><>
VIP Contributor
Joined
Jul 8, 2000
Messages
17,081
Reaction score
28,365
Online
The point works both ways. It's ridiculous that I can walk into rouses without a mask and with no restrictions to the number of people inside yet a church with a 1200 person capacity was restricted to either zero or 10 persons. But your point of time spent is absolutely valid, as what we do know suggests that length of exposure plays a big part.

From a Catholic perspective, this should not be cause to close churches or restrict access to the sacraments. Reasonable accommodation can be made to reduce risks. Bishops have dispensed your obligation to attend. Distancing is easy to accomplish by limiting to percentages of capacity and roping off pews to physically force the reduction in seating. Families can sit together in the middle while single or double attendees can sit further out to the sides. Catholics aren't really enthusiastic about our singing anyway so it's doubtful to be a problem. Choirs can be suspended in favor of an organ and a cantor favoring traditional sacred music which is less group sing oriented. Distribution of the Eucharist can be done by the priest alone rather than lay ministers, and of course can be limited to the species of bread if necessary. The priest can wear a shield or mask to prevent himself from expelling air during distribution of communion. No passing of collection baskets, etc.

It can and should be done. The right to pray in your house of worship is essential. And to many forms of faith, such as Catholic or Orthodox, the physical element and proximity cannot be replaced. You can't do it virtually through live streaming etc.
So do we allow Catholics to have church but not others?
 

St. Widge

Socially Distant
VIP Contributor
Joined
Mar 14, 2002
Messages
36,323
Reaction score
18,853
Age
49
Location
4th Ward Soldier
Offline
There are still kids in day care all over the place. My day care has 1,000 centers and 50% remain open.

You're misrepresenting my ask. I'm not asking for exact answers or a Magic 8 ball. I don't care about how far away the kids were kept, their outside time, what kind of masks staff is wearing, or policy. And time of year, center size, age of kids, day care size, number of caregivers and the rest are data points that are 100% attainable with the desire and resources.

And no, I don't know the answer to the question, despite you passing speculation off as an answer. There is data out there that shows that kids aren't really vectors for the virus, which would mean that it's not really a risk at all. Then there are some rogue data points and random scientists saying "that's not true".

Even if the answer isn't exact (which, again, I never asked for), the American public shouldn't be relying on scattered studies from Iceland, A single Italian City, Germany, and The Netherlands for decision support that could change their financial and mental health course for a long time and/or kill them.

We should have our own ****ing data because we are the most powerful and resource-rich country on Earth, and because outside of China we have the largest amount of data to mine. But we have become a country where a significant portion of the population including some if its leaders are literally anti-science, which leads us to where we are now.

It's absurd that we're not even trying and the notion that "it has to be perfect or it's not worth doing!" that you seem to be pushing on me, despite that never being a part of my original post, is counterproductive to keeping our people safe.

You're my boy but I don't really understand where you're trying to go with this. You're basically misrepresenting my ask then saying "it'll never be perfect so screw it".
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding your ask. And maybe it's that you are talking about specific information and I'm looking at the more general amount of knowledge we have. I agree that there are specific issues that need to be looked at more and that yours is one of them.

And, I'm not aware of stuff out there saying that kids aren't vectors for the virus so you have more information than I do. And, I admittedly haven't researched the issue. If it turns out to be true, that would be big and good news since it would allow kids to go back to school and day cares which would allow parents to work. I have to say it sounds really dubious to me, but I haven't read any of the articles so I could be totally missing something or just totally wrong.

Anyway, I'm not saying it will never be perfect so screw it. I'm just saying that it takes time to get correct answers so some patience is necessary. But, yes, if the government invested more resources and showed more leadership and urgency, we probably would be further along in our knowledge and less patience would be necessary.

Anyway, I don't want to belabor the point anymore than I already have and I think we fundamentally agree on the issues with the handling of this anyway. I'm just an arse that nitpicks stuff.
 

Oye

carry all the groceries in in one trip
VIP Subscribing Member
VIP Contributor
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Messages
23,736
Reaction score
40,511
Location
the hyperreal
Offline
i'm curious about this
what can you not get watching from home than you need to be in a church for?
- legit question, i'm trying to figure it out with school work as well
the biggest thing, for me, is the participation in the sacrament of communion - that's not something that can be replicated by watching a service remotely
 

DaveXA

I love the Lord!
Staff member
Super Moderator
Joined
Sep 6, 2001
Messages
30,917
Reaction score
18,694
Age
49
Location
Vienna, VA via Lafayette
Offline
i'm curious about this
what can you not get watching from home than you need to be in a church for?
- legit question, i'm trying to figure it out with school work as well
I'll try by comparing it to work. When I was going to the office every day, I will sometimes jump from person to person, learning how to do new tasks and i could drop in and ask a quick question. I also would spend time getting to know my coworkers by eating lunch with them and I'd offen go for a walk with one of my coworkers. That building of friendship and connecting with each other has pretty much disappeared since we started working from home. Sometimes problems come up that require the assistance of a coworker, and doing it through Skype chat/no video, leaves a lot to be desired.

It's really not the same. I actually do miss the community and interaction in person. I think me being deaf, the differences are magnified even more.

The life of a Christian is often reflected in the communal aspect of the church and there's no substitute for intimate interaction. It's a real challenge for people who put a high value on that intimacy.

Best way I can explain it. Good question though.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 6)



  • Headlines

    Top Bottom