FBI unveils large-scale college admissions bribery scandal - high-profile arrests made (1 Viewer)

[Dago]

it's been a while since I've done the research, but a few years ago when I was looking at the impact of for profit (there are private, non-profit institutions - make it clear I am not talking about those) on inner city communities and poor students.

It was appalling. Too many of these institutions are predatory and abandon their kids with no pretense to an actual education. There were cases of a school rounding up homeless and poor people, putting them on a bus, and having them fill out paperwork to get loans. The loans went directly to the school and that was pretty much the end of the transaction. I want to say it was a Cleveland-area school. I'd need to dig into my notes.

Regardless, there's not *enough* oversight of these schools.

Here's a good episode from 'Fresh Air', with a transcript, from NPR done a couple of years ago.

https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=521371034

The guest is someone who worked at a couple of for-profit schools and after doing some thinking and digging, began to second-guess what these schools were doing and then spent time researching it as part of her own dissertation. In the interview they cover a number of issues, such as the evolution/history from the 'mom and pop' to the corporate. She talks about the subsidizing of these places to the tune of "13 to 14 billion dollars a year. " She talks about why these places are so much more expensive. They talk about how much these kids are borrowing to go to these schools and what it means for their futures. It covers a lot of ground pretty well in a relatively short time/space. The book she wrote is called Lower Ed:

Lower Ed: How For-Profit Colleges Deepen Inequality in America



in the interest of disclosure - I have only read excerpts of this. A colleague has used it for work and had really high praise and what I've read is compelling and supports the things I found on my own years ago.

These places need more oversight - not less. The Obama Administration actually began cracking down on these - which is something I actually applauded his Department of Ed doing (I didn't really care for much they did at all... Arne Duncan was a blight).

Anyway, I realize this is apart from the main discussion but wanted to complement your experience in the legal field with what I'd seen in the academic side of things.

yeah it can be pretty horrible. I work with financial aid for one and actually busted the owner of a different school for ghosting students

 

[RazorOye]

yeah it can be pretty horrible. I work with financial aid for one and actually busted the owner of a different school for ghosting students

it's my understanding that it used to be different (and this obviously applies to all universities of pretty much any stripe) for these for-profit and the landscape began to shift in the 90s - and not really for the benefit of the students

it should also be noted that - like other schools - these places are 'subsidized' by the financial aid system in place for postsecondary education. Something that I think has been exploited and is on the table for 'postsecondary industry change'. So, yes, these places are abysmal in too many cases. But there's also too much easy money for these schools to grab, using people on the social margins as a conduit to that cash

 

[JimEverett]

it's my understanding that it used to be different (and this obviously applies to all universities of pretty much any stripe) for these for-profit and the landscape began to shift in the 90s - and not really for the benefit of the students

it should also be noted that - like other schools - these places are 'subsidized' by the financial aid system in place for postsecondary education. Something that I think has been exploited and is on the table for 'postsecondary industry change'. So, yes, these places are abysmal in too many cases. But there's also too much easy money for these schools to grab, using people on the social margins as a conduit to that cash

Everything is about getting the FinAid app signed and the student enrolled for at least 3 days or whatever it is to guarantee payment.

 

[dtc]

I agree about private college but keep in mind it still costs $50,000 to send your kid to Alabama from out of state.

Why would you do that to a kid?

 

[Dago]

Everything is about getting the FinAid app signed and the student enrolled for at least 3 days or whatever it is to guarantee payment.

that is incorrect. a lot of for profit career schools operate on a clock hour basis. a standard academic year is 900 hours broken up into two 450 hour pay periods to simulate semesters.

in the event of a student withdrawal, there is a form call Return To Title IV done to calculate earned financial aid. financial aid in a given pay period is not earned unless the student completes more than 60% of that period (270 hours or more).

in your example, if a student was a dependent and full time, and had the max of financial aid (and assuming 6 hour days), they would have completed 18 scheduled hours out of 450 hour pay period allowing the school to keep 4% of the money expected for the pay period and keep $232 IF the student qualified for the maximum Pell ($6195) and requested their max in student loans ($5500)

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

Why would you do that to a kid?

At least its not Auburn (which is even pricier)

 

[dtc]

At least its not Auburn (which is even pricier)

That's funny. So you went to school just down the road from me at about the same time and you must have a kid talking about out of state at AU or AL. I put the kibosh on AL and AU as best I could, but the little red-haired girl still brings up Auburn from time to time. I had to actually take her to Gainesville to get a first hand understanding of the horribleness that is UF adn then I screwed up and let her tour U of Hawaii a couple weeks ago.

Here's to hoping she decides to go to Tulane so I can rationalize buying a house...

 

[Jeff Miller]

If the so called "not for profit schools" offered affordable online classes to increase opportunities for education to people who can't afford or work full time and can't do the 4 year campus financed vacation then these "for profit" schools wouldn't exist.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

That's funny. So you went to school just down the road from me at about the same time and you must have a kid talking about out of state at AU or AL. I put the kibosh on AL and AU as best I could, but the little red-haired girl still brings up Auburn from time to time. I had to actually take her to Gainesville to get a first hand understanding of the horribleness that is UF adn then I screwed up and let her tour U of Hawaii a couple weeks ago.

Here's to hoping she decides to go to Tulane so I can rationalize buying a house...

Unfortunately my kid doesn't even want Alabama or AU. She wants "smaller" (read: more expensive).

I will die at my desk as a very old man.

 

[JimEverett]

that is incorrect. a lot of for profit career schools operate on a clock hour basis. a standard academic year is 900 hours broken up into two 450 hour pay periods to simulate semesters.

in the event of a student withdrawal, there is a form call Return To Title IV done to calculate earned financial aid. financial aid in a given pay period is not earned unless the student completes more than 60% of that period (270 hours or more).

in your example, if a student was a dependent and full time, and had the max of financial aid (and assuming 6 hour days), they would have completed 18 scheduled hours out of 450 hour pay period allowing the school to keep 4% of the money expected for the pay period and keep $232 IF the student qualified for the maximum Pell ($6195) and requested their max in student loans ($5500)

Yeah, but what is the time period for the disbursement to students? Isn't somewhere between a week before to a week after school starts? The student who will officially withdraw from school after receiving a check for several thousand dollars is few and far between.

Which I think is why the recruiters would get paid after the first few days their recruit stayed enrolled.

 

[Dago]

Yeah, but what is the time period for the disbursement to students? Isn't somewhere between a week before to a week after school starts? The student who will officially withdraw from school after receiving a check for several thousand dollars is few and far between.

Which I think is why the recruiters would get paid after the first few days their recruit stayed enrolled.

it is illegal for recruiters of schools receiving Title IV funds to receive any performance based compensation. Additionally, a new student cannot have a disbursement of loans until they have been in school at least 30 days to prevent exactly what you are talking about

what good is it for a school to get paid if they just have to return the funds? the scenario you are imagining just doesn't exist.
Student starts. School can get their Pell immediately. Disbursement of loans comes in after day 30 and the school has 2 weeks to pay any applicable credit balance. If the student doesn't make it past 270 hours before withdrawing (9 weeks for most schools), the school has to return funds

several of the abusive corporations are already out of business or on their way. there was a major chain out west that went under, Virginia College lost accreditation, Phoenix lost their ability to get VA funds (which is major)

 

[JimEverett]

it is illegal for recruiters of schools receiving Title IV funds to receive any performance based compensation. Additionally, a new student cannot have a disbursement of loans until they have been in school at least 30 days to prevent exactly what you are talking about

what good is it for a school to get paid if they just have to return the funds? the scenario you are imagining just doesn't exist.
Student starts. School can get their Pell immediately. Disbursement of loans comes in after day 30 and the school has 2 weeks to pay any applicable credit balance. If the student doesn't make it past 270 hours before withdrawing (9 weeks for most schools), the school has to return funds

several of the abusive corporations are already out of business or on their way. there was a major chain out west that went under, Virginia College lost accreditation, Phoenix lost their ability to get VA funds (which is major)

The school I am familiar with does not operate anymore. I know they had a lot of other legal troubles years later after I had been familiar with them.

I do know that their recruiters were paid on a per student basis. I was not aware that that was illegal at the time.

My memory may be wrong, but I thought the students got a disbursement right as school was starting which allowed them to purchase supplies. Their remaining money was disbursed once or twice more per semester. Perhaps that has changed? I don't know.

 

[Dago]

The school I am familiar with does not operate anymore. I know they had a lot of other legal troubles years later after I had been familiar with them.

I do know that their recruiters were paid on a per student basis. I was not aware that that was illegal at the time.

My memory may be wrong, but I thought the students got a disbursement right as school was starting which allowed them to purchase supplies. Their remaining money was disbursed once or twice more per semester. Perhaps that has changed? I don't know.

how far back was this? it may have even been before performance based pay was illegal

there was a lot of shady crap going on in the 80s and 90s which led to a lot of retribution from the feds in the 2000s. the last decade has seen the feds making more of a distinction between schools that have honest errors and ones that are really screwing people. annual audits have become far more strict and the DoE is holding auditors and accrediting bodies far more accountable for their jobs in overseeing schools

 

[superchuck500]

Felicity Huffman was sentenced to one-month in jail and $20K. And she pled guilty right away and cooperated.

Those who have fought the investigation will likely face worse.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

Felicity Huffman was sentenced to one-month in jail and $20K. And she pled guilty right away and cooperated.

Those who have fought the investigation will likely face worse.

She hasn't been sentenced yet - that's the sentence DOJ is asking for. She's asking for probation.

I think the actual hearing is this Friday. Should be interesting.