FBI unveils large-scale college admissions bribery scandal - high-profile arrests made (1 Viewer)

[Brad Mojo]

No, I am not. Nor do I condone the parents that participated in this scam. I think its gross, though I admire their chutzpah in a way.

I'm just saying the system is set up to create strong incentives for this kind of thing.

I agree about private college but keep in mind it still costs $50,000 to send your kid to Alabama from out of state.

People actually pay money out of pocket to go to Alabama? It should be the other way around.

 

[zeetes]

No, I am not. Nor do I condone the parents that participated in this scam. I think its gross, though I admire their chutzpah in a way.

I'm just saying the system is set up to create strong incentives for this kind of thing.

I agree about private college but keep in mind it still costs $50,000 to send your kid to Alabama from out of state.

it was almost life threatening shock at tamu after our year of "state" rates, after katrina. ridiculous.

 

[superchuck500]

I agree about private college but keep in mind it still costs $50,000 to send your kid to Alabama from out of state.

Just to be clear, that's all-in cost including room/board, transportation, misc.

Cost of Attendance – Afford

Affording college at the University of Alabama

financialaid.ua.edu

 

[JimEverett]

I missed this in the article originally..



It is in the best interest of the child to get cheaper college.....

Is the value of their house the source of the parents being called wealthy? I didn;t read the article.

If so, that is a very poor way of doing it.

 

[Saint_Ward]

Is the value of their house the source of the parents being called wealthy? I didn;t read the article.

If so, that is a very poor way of doing it.

That was the reporter adding that with the data. That's not the consideration of the college.

One Chicago-area woman told The Wall Street Journal that she transferred guardianship of her then 17-year-old daughter to her business partner last year. While her household income is greater than $250,000 a year, she said, she and her husband have spent about $600,000 putting several older children through college and have no equity in their home, which is valued at about $1.2 million, according to the property website Zillow. She said she has little cash on hand and little saved for her daughter’s education.

,.......

Today, her daughter attends a private college on the West Coast which costs $65,000 in annual tuition, she said. The daughter received a $27,000 merit scholarship and an additional $20,000 in need-based aid, including a federal Pell grant, which she won’t have to pay back. The daughter is responsible for $18,000 a year, which her grandparents pay, the woman said.

We can view this a few ways.

1. 1. The only complaint is essentially defrauding (legally.. ish) federal and state "need-based" aid. $20k in need based aid (including the Pell grant, likely the full $5775). Then the rest her grandparents are paying.
   1. So, she took $5775 from the federal government she really shouldn't qualify for, potentially preventing another student the ability to attend a school. That amount usually covers community college tuition and books pretty easily.
   2. The other $14-15k in need based aid was definitely stolen from another student either from that college or that state. Those funds are definitely limited. That could be preventing a lower income or middle class income student from attending college (or that college) and transforming their economic lives compared to their family.
   3. Federal Pell Grants are supposed to only go to families with under $50k/year income. But most go to people with under $20k. The idea is to really help people who are out on their own, later in life, transform their lives from a non-degreed worker to a degreed worker (or a trade school), as well as those from poorer families.
2. Did that family have to put their kids through private college out on the west coast? What's wrong with a State school? University of Illinois is a good school. What's wrong with an instate private school? University of Illinois tuition is one third that of the private school ($16-21k). And if you include room and board and fees, is still about half ($30k-$36k).
   1. Often, you @JimEverett , have specifically talked about how we buy too much. Spend too much. Houses are too big. Well, this is an example. Why did they send all of their kids to private schools away from home, out of state? Seems like the most expensive approach.
   2. Personally, I have flat out told my son, he's staying in state. If he has any out of state options, he's going to need a full ride, or enough scholarship aid, to not have the "out of pocket / loan" cost more than staying in state. He also will get the Florida Bright Futures scholarship, so staying in state helps him a lot.
   3. Overall, it sounds like a wealthy family who has no idea how to budget and over spends, or are liars, telling a story to create sympathy for their 'plight'.

Now, these aren't necessarily 1% ers. But clearly, easily upper middle class to rich. But if they feel a squeeze on their dollars, then maybe they should make smarter choices with their money.

Why don't we use that argument against them, like we do with poor / poorer people with cell phones, internet and, God forbid, a car. (this isn't directed at you JE)

 

[JimEverett]

That was the reporter adding that with the data. That's not the consideration of the college.



We can view this a few ways.

1. 1. The only complaint is essentially defrauding (legally.. ish) federal and state "need-based" aid. $20k in need based aid (including the Pell grant, likely the full $5775). Then the rest her grandparents are paying.
   1. So, she took $5775 from the federal government she really shouldn't qualify for, potentially preventing another student the ability to attend a school. That amount usually covers community college tuition and books pretty easily.
   2. The other $14-15k in need based aid was definitely stolen from another student either from that college or that state. Those funds are definitely limited. That could be preventing a lower income or middle class income student from attending college (or that college) and transforming their economic lives compared to their family.
   3. Federal Pell Grants are supposed to only go to families with under $50k/year income. But most go to people with under $20k. The idea is to really help people who are out on their own, later in life, transform their lives from a non-degreed worker to a degreed worker (or a trade school), as well as those from poorer families.
2. Did that family have to put their kids through private college out on the west coast? What's wrong with a State school? University of Illinois is a good school. What's wrong with an instate private school? University of Illinois tuition is one third that of the private school ($16-21k). And if you include room and board and fees, is still about half ($30k-$36k).
   1. Often, you @JimEverett , have specifically talked about how we buy too much. Spend too much. Houses are too big. Well, this is an example. Why did they send all of their kids to private schools away from home, out of state? Seems like the most expensive approach.
   2. Personally, I have flat out told my son, he's staying in state. If he has any out of state options, he's going to need a full ride, or enough scholarship aid, to not have the "out of pocket / loan" cost more than staying in state. He also will get the Florida Bright Futures scholarship, so staying in state helps him a lot.
   3. Overall, it sounds like a wealthy family who has no idea how to budget and over spends, or are liars, telling a story to create sympathy for their 'plight'.

Now, these aren't necessarily 1% ers. But clearly, easily upper middle class to rich. But if they feel a squeeze on their dollars, then maybe they should make smarter choices with their money.

Why don't we use that argument against them, like we do with poor / poorer people with cell phones, internet and, God forbid, a car. (this isn't directed at you JE)

Yeah - I don't disagree, particularly as it relates to where people go to college.
I just think the term "wealthy" is misused a great deal. A family of 4 with a household income of $250,000 in Chicago is not "wealthy" in my opinion - even if their house's worth is valued by someone at $1 million.

 

[Saint_Ward]

Just to be clear, that's all-in cost including room/board, transportation, misc.

Cost of Attendance – Afford

Affording college at the University of Alabama

financialaid.ua.edu

And sadly, this has become the new normal for most state (under)funded schools.

Tuition and Fees | Admissions | Michigan Technological University

Michigan Tech aims to provide students with the most value per dollar through quality, affordability, and alumni success.

www.mtu.edu

MTU is about the same total, but tuition is higher, and room and board is lower.

It's crazy how tuition has climbed. it is a real problem. it's not just the for profit private schools, or classic private schools. State funded (I like to say underfunded) schools have ramped it up after years of cuts or slowed growth, but needs to rebuild infrastructure and retain talent.

However, my tuition for the 1999-2000 academic year was just under $12,000 for tuition and Room and Board and fees and estimated books. I think the tuition alone was around $4000 for the whole year. Not sure I can find that data. Currently $15k in tuition alone.

20 years, 375% increase. Or, a year over year increase of about 13.75% per year on the average (simple interest approach). How is any cost growing at 13.75% a year sustainable?

 

[Saint_Ward]

Yeah - I don't disagree, particularly as it relates to where people go to college.
I just think the term "wealthy" is misused a great deal. A family of 4 with a household income of $250,000 in Chicago is not "wealthy" in my opinion - even if their house's worth is valued by someone at $1 million.

Fair enough. Even though they don't say how much over 250k their income is. Wealth, like value is a tricky thing. But it's a way people can hide their taxable income.

Anyway, forget the "wealthy" part. They are over qualified (or ineligible) for need based aid.

 

[Dago]

And sadly, this has become the new normal for most state (under)funded schools.

Tuition and Fees | Admissions | Michigan Technological University

Michigan Tech aims to provide students with the most value per dollar through quality, affordability, and alumni success.

www.mtu.edu

MTU is about the same total, but tuition is higher, and room and board is lower.

It's crazy how tuition has climbed. it is a real problem. it's not just the for profit private schools, or classic private schools. State funded (I like to say underfunded) schools have ramped it up after years of cuts or slowed growth, but needs to rebuild infrastructure and retain talent.

However, my tuition for the 1999-2000 academic year was just under $12,000 for tuition and Room and Board and fees and estimated books. I think the tuition alone was around $4000 for the whole year. Not sure I can find that data. Currently $15k in tuition alone.

20 years, 375% increase. Or, a year over year increase of about 13.75% per year on the average (simple interest approach). How is any cost growing at 13.75% a year sustainable?

the for profit sector has gotten a really bad rap....some of it deserved. however, universities have pretty much been given free reign by the DoE because they still participate in this fiction that universities are not in the business of getting people ready for jobs. they are just there for educational purposes

universities are routinely get a slap on the wrist for things that a for profit would get shut down for with jail sentences handed out

 

[Saint_Ward]

I take this stuff personally.

My parents combined income was probably 60-80k/year (estimating.. I don't recall). My dad worked sales, so his income was all over the place. I'm probably overestimating it, to be honest. They had nothing saved for my college. We made too much for federal aid.

I applied to two in-state schools. I was #3 in my class, solid ACT (could have been better), lots of extra curriculars, part time job, etc. One school offered me a small aid package, and mostly told me to take out a lot of loans. The other, I earned two merit based scholarships that gave me a full ride.

If it weren't for those scholarships (really the second one that covered it all), which is limited funds from the University directly, I am not sure I'd have had the opportunity to go to college like I did. I'm not sure if I took the financial risk anyway, that I'd be still buried in debt or not.

It transformed my life. Not as much as I'd like, but it has. I'm at a different income level than my parents combined.

Now, my scholarships weren't need based, even though I think not having a high income helped a bit, but it was a limited University resource that went based on merit and other factors. Imagine if I lied my way though my application / essay to cheat my way into that award, thus removing that possibility for someone else?

That's how I view this.

 

[Saint_Ward]

the for profit sector has gotten a really bad rap....some of it deserved. however, universities have pretty much been given free reign by the DoE because they still participate in this fiction that universities are not in the business of getting people ready for jobs. they are just there for educational purposes

universities are routinely get a slap on the wrist for things that a for profit would get shut down for with jail sentences handed out

Some do and have reigned in the public universities.

The big issue with me and Private for profit style schools, they are often glorified community colleges, charging a rate well over what they can deliver, and their requirements are low, so they trap people into something they really can't handle, for an amount they can't pay back, for a job that won't let them pay it back.

They are the pay day lender version of education. Sure, if gives the poor and unqualified access to education (capital in the case of pay day lenders), but at such a high cost, it traps them.

 

[JimEverett]

And sadly, this has become the new normal for most state (under)funded schools.

Tuition and Fees | Admissions | Michigan Technological University

Michigan Tech aims to provide students with the most value per dollar through quality, affordability, and alumni success.

www.mtu.edu

MTU is about the same total, but tuition is higher, and room and board is lower.

It's crazy how tuition has climbed. it is a real problem. it's not just the for profit private schools, or classic private schools. State funded (I like to say underfunded) schools have ramped it up after years of cuts or slowed growth, but needs to rebuild infrastructure and retain talent.

However, my tuition for the 1999-2000 academic year was just under $12,000 for tuition and Room and Board and fees and estimated books. I think the tuition alone was around $4000 for the whole year. Not sure I can find that data. Currently $15k in tuition alone.

20 years, 375% increase. Or, a year over year increase of about 13.75% per year on the average (simple interest approach). How is any cost growing at 13.75% a year sustainable?

My first year at the University of Tennessee full-time tuition (13+ semester hours) was $750 and housing and a full meal plan (3 meals per day) was just under $$3,000 for a semester.

But the expectations and wants of students then, I believe, were very different vs today. Not only that, but the missions of universities themselves are very different. They are seen as economic drivers, for instance.
The share of funds spent on instruction is far less today than what it was.

 

[JimEverett]

Some do and have reigned in the public universities.

The big issue with me and Private for profit style schools, they are often glorified community colleges, charging a rate well over what they can deliver, and their requirements are low, so they trap people into something they really can't handle, for an amount they can't pay back, for a job that won't let them pay it back.

They are the pay day lender version of education. Sure, if gives the poor and unqualified access to education (capital in the case of pay day lenders), but at such a high cost, it traps them.

Its worse than that. I sued a for profit college and got to know how it worked really well. While I think its ture that non-profit colleges go overboard in what they say a college (or professional degree) can deliver they do not come close to the overbearing weight these for profits put on kids and families.

I was surprised to see that there were many recruiters earning close to $500,000 a year at this school.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

My first year at the University of Tennessee full-time tuition (13+ semester hours) was $750 and housing and a full meal plan (3 meals per day) was just under $$3,000 for a semester.

But the expectations and wants of students then, I believe, were very different vs today. Not only that, but the missions of universities themselves are very different. They are seen as economic drivers, for instance.
The share of funds spent on instruction is far less today than what it was.

When I enrolled at Penn in late 80s it was $20,600 all-in. That's $42,500 today. Cheaper than sending my kid to Alabama from out of state today.

The current all-in cost for Penn is $73,900.

 

[RazorOye]

Its worse than that. I sued a for profit college and got to know how it worked really well. While I think its ture that non-profit colleges go overboard in what they say a college (or professional degree) can deliver they do not come close to the overbearing weight these for profits put on kids and families.

I was surprised to see that there were many recruiters earning close to $500,000 a year at this school.

it's been a while since I've done the research, but a few years ago when I was looking at the impact of for profit (there are private, non-profit institutions - make it clear I am not talking about those) on inner city communities and poor students.

It was appalling. Too many of these institutions are predatory and abandon their kids with no pretense to an actual education. There were cases of a school rounding up homeless and poor people, putting them on a bus, and having them fill out paperwork to get loans. The loans went directly to the school and that was pretty much the end of the transaction. I want to say it was a Cleveland-area school. I'd need to dig into my notes.

Regardless, there's not *enough* oversight of these schools.

Here's a good episode from 'Fresh Air', with a transcript, from NPR done a couple of years ago.

https://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=521371034

The guest is someone who worked at a couple of for-profit schools and after doing some thinking and digging, began to second-guess what these schools were doing and then spent time researching it as part of her own dissertation. In the interview they cover a number of issues, such as the evolution/history from the 'mom and pop' to the corporate. She talks about the subsidizing of these places to the tune of "13 to 14 billion dollars a year. " She talks about why these places are so much more expensive. They talk about how much these kids are borrowing to go to these schools and what it means for their futures. It covers a lot of ground pretty well in a relatively short time/space. The book she wrote is called Lower Ed:

Lower Ed: How For-Profit Colleges Deepen Inequality in America

Despite the celebrated history of not-for-profit institutions of higher education, today more than 2 million students are enrolled in for-profit colleges such as ITT Technical Institute, the University of Phoenix, and others. Yet little is known about why for-profits have expanded so quickly and even less about how the power and influence of this big-money industry impact individual lives. Lower Ed, the first book to link the rapid expansion of for-profit degrees to America’s increasing inequality, reveals the story of an industry that exploits the pain, desperation, and aspirations of the most vulnerable and exposes the conditions that allow for-profit education to thrive.

Tressie McMillan Cottom draws on her personal experience as a former counselor at two for-profit colleges and dozens of interviews with students, senior executives, and activists to detail how these schools have become so successful and to decipher the benefits, credentials, pitfalls, and real costs of a for-profit education. By humanizing the hard choices about school and survival that millions of Americans face, Lower Ed nimbly parses the larger forces that deliver some of us to Yale and others to For-Profit U in an office park off Interstate 10.

in the interest of disclosure - I have only read excerpts of this. A colleague has used it for work and had really high praise and what I've read is compelling and supports the things I found on my own years ago.

These places need more oversight - not less. The Obama Administration actually began cracking down on these - which is something I actually applauded his Department of Ed doing (I didn't really care for much they did at all... Arne Duncan was a blight).

Anyway, I realize this is apart from the main discussion but wanted to complement your experience in the legal field with what I'd seen in the academic side of things.