Head Coach if there is no GM change

[Saint KayBee]

So now that that’s all shaken out…

What GM wants to come here and be the Cap Cleaner-Upper? The team is hamstrung by futures borrowing and if the logic goes that a quality coach won’t come here, which quality GM will want to bother cleaning up this mess?

I’ve proposed that Loomis’ status in the Benson will means he’d have the be in a role I made up called the Chair of the C-suite, whereby he’s over the partners in the Saints/Pelicans/associated businesses portfolio in a less hands-on role than that of the traditional general manager of a football team.

But that’s rich folks’ business, and I’m working-class. They’ll figure it out

 

[Hedon James]

So now that that’s all shaken out…

What GM wants to come here and be the Cap Cleaner-Upper? The team is hamstrung by futures borrowing and if the logic goes that a quality coach won’t come here, which quality GM will want to bother cleaning up this mess?

I’ve proposed that Loomis’ status in the Benson will means he’d have the be in a role I made up called the Chair of the C-suite, whereby he’s over the partners in the Saints/Pelicans/associated businesses portfolio in a less hands-on role than that of the traditional general manager of a football team.

But that’s rich folks’ business, and I’m working-class. They’ll figure it out

Oh boy....stirring the hornet's nest, are we? LOL!

You've actually asked the very question I've been thinking of. First and foremost, I don't think ML is going anywhere. I'd like a new GM, but I'm afraid we're stuck with him until he decides to part under his own terms. JMO. But IF he leaves and we're looking for a new GM, that would certainly impact the HC candidates, IMO.

Before we get into that.....I don't know where this conclusion that "a quality coach won't come here" has gotten such traction? All I've seen (and specifically in this thread), is that the Saints are unlikely to land one of the more popular/in demand candidates. I guess that means Ben Johnson(?). I think it's simple supply/demand economics that the most popular/in demand candidates are going to be able to "cherry pick" their destinations....the teams that are perceived to offer the highest chance of sustained success the quickest. And that's not the Saints. We've got solid & stable ownership, with a history of providing the HC whatever he asks for to build a team, and a history of giving him enough time to demonstrate the results. But that's about it. We also offer: no franchise QB (yet?); holes throughout the roster; questionable depth across the entire roster; lack of cap $ for FA; limited number of draft picks, and a history of "burning" picks for "need". I seriously doubt the most popular/in demand coaches are going to see the Saints as the preferred choice. But that DOES NOT mean a quality coach won't come here!!!

If the most popular/in demand coaches are considered "tier 1", our new HC will likely come from "tier 2". Coach candidates are a lot like draft picks....a bit of a crapshoot whether you're getting the HOF-er, the perennial All-Pro, the average starter, or a bust. Round selected is no guarantee of outcome. Same with coaches...tier selected from is no guarantee of outcome. It looks like there will be 6-8 new HC selected this cycle. Each team will likely interview 3-5 of their "top candidates", on average. That means there will LIKELY be between 18 (6 teams x 3 interviews) and 40 (8 teams x 5 interviews) "top candidates" for 6-8 positions! (There will obviously be some "crossover" between teams, but no way all teams will be interviewing the same 3-5 candidates!) We are going to get one of the top 6-8 candidates! There are only 32 of these jobs in the WORLD, and only 6-8 available in 2025! I'm confident a quality coach WILL come here. Maybe not the guy that every team wants, and maybe not the guy that the loudest voices in the fandom want, but we're going to be able to get one! Let's not forget that CSP wanted the Green Bay job in 2006 hiring cycle...the Saints were his "fallback" choice. When his agent called him to say that Green Bay was hiring McCarthy, CSP got serious about the Saints offer REAL QUICK. (side note...wasn't McCarthy on the Saints radar in 2006, due to previous familiarity? Isn't it possible McCarthy was our "top" candidate in 2006, but we pivoted to CSP when McCarthy accepted the Pack's offer?! We'll probably never know, but it certainly fits the Saints historical MO.) Regardless of how it actually happened, I'd say that 2006 hiring worked out VERY well, despite the Saints not being CSPs first choice. I can't remember with 100% clarity on this, but wasn't McCarthy the "hot" candidate in 2006? I know it wasn't CSP! With all that said, the only question in my mind, is whether the Saints organization will be able to accurately identify him?!

With that myth dispelled, I think the GM argument is dispelled for like/same reasons. So back to KB's original question...which I think is infinitely more interesting than the coaching discussion...who should be considered in the event of GM change? Coaching trees are easy to identify from game-day experiences. GMs....not so much. Assistant GMs and Directors of Scouting....even less so. I know I can't name any names! But I can look to other franchises' sustained success over long periods and recognize their competitive relevance, despite different QBs and different HCs. Green Bay, Pittsburgh, & Baltimore are best in class...."tier 1", IMO. All have changed HCs and QBs in the past decade or two, and yet continue to churn out winning seasons and challenge for playoff spots and division titles. What assistant GM and/or Scouts in THOSE franchises are ready for their opportunity? I don't know, but that's where I'd start my search. Who's in "tier 2"? IMO, it's the teams who have assembled the right combination of HC and QB, and are sustaining that success. Buffalo, Kansas City, Philadelphia, Minnesota, Detroit, and probably SF & LA Rams. I'd consider "tier 2" candidates also. (I would've put the Saints in "tier 2 before CSP left)

"Tier 3" consists of teams that have experienced success with the right coach and QB, but the jury is still out regarding sustainability over long term. Teams like Washington, Houston, Denver, San Diego. This is a "transition tier", and teams in this tier will either rise to Tier 2, given time and experience, or fall back into Tier 4. Tier 4 doesn't appear to have the right HC, or the right QB, or neither; and traditionally hover around .500 or worse....it's "everyone else". Saints are Tier 4, IMO. While the ultimate goal is to build a franchise culture that reaches Tier 1, we first need to get to Tier 3 (competitive success and challenger). If we can sustain it, we'll get to Tier 2. But we need to sustain it for lengthy periods...across QB changes, and coaching changes....to get to that elite Tier 1. The best and most logical way to get there, IMO, is to poach the right guy from Green Bay, Pittsburgh or Baltimore who is ready to take the next step and build HIS vision of a dynasty in New Orleans. But that's the easy part....broad brush. Specifics will be the challenge. Who fits that description in these organizations? Does ANYONE on this forum have a clue, because I sure don't!

 

[St. Widge]

So now that that’s all shaken out…

What GM wants to come here and be the Cap Cleaner-Upper? The team is hamstrung by futures borrowing and if the logic goes that a quality coach won’t come here, which quality GM will want to bother cleaning up this mess?

I’ve proposed that Loomis’ status in the Benson will means he’d have the be in a role I made up called the Chair of the C-suite, whereby he’s over the partners in the Saints/Pelicans/associated businesses portfolio in a less hands-on role than that of the traditional general manager of a football team.

But that’s rich folks’ business, and I’m working-class. They’ll figure it out

I think it's a good point about the GM position. The truth is that if Loomis moves on/is fired/ is promoted out of the GM role, etc. the most likely replacement is someone that is already with the team. That likely means either Khai Harley, Dave Ziegler, Randy Mueller, or Jeff Ireland would get the job. Maybe they would do a better job, but none of them would be the type of complete overhaul that many are calling for.

I do think Mueller would be an interesting option if only because he felt like he was starting to build something here before the Haslett fiasco cost him his job. He wasn't great in Miami, but he always felt like a guy who could identify talent and knew how to best use the draft. He also seemed to value adding draft picks though I will admit that I haven't looked closely as how many trade downs/trade ups he has done.

But, whoever it would be is going to be someone with a lot of NFL experience because I think Mrs. Benson and Dennis Lauscha place high value of being able to hire a GM with experience that they can just let do his job without having to be too involved. They aren't going to hire the next hot shot young GM. They are going to hire someone with years of experience doing the job.

 

[sfidc3]

People saying they want an “alpha dog “ style of HC and then mentioning Joe Brady haven’t done their homework. I really like Brady but his personality is the polar opposite of “alpha dog”.

I don’t know that much about Glenn’s personality but based on what I’ve seen during Lions coverage, he also seems pretty cerebral as well.

Sean Payton was/is an alpha dog type of coach. If that’s what folks want, then someone like Vrabel should be near the top of your list.p, assuming he’s interested.

Not necessarily, you have no idea what Brady will look like as a HC, as he has never been in that role, do you know him personally?

And TBH, there have been successful coaches that haven't been "alpha dog" types.....Andy Reid comes to mind....

I never liked Vrabel, think he is a meathead conservative defensive minded coach, I want a young offensive minded coach willing to take chances.....

 

[sfidc3]

Literally read his post as conjecture. I just don’t agree with the assessment and still believe it is based on the official SR forum witch hunt of Mickey Loomis.

It's curious to me that as a GM with likely recently expanded roles (immediately after CSP left) who is supposedly in charge of a team that has literally been destroyed by bad decision after bad decision and is now likely the worst team in the NFL, would be immune from criticism.....I think at this point ML deserves some witch hunting.....I'm amazed how folks are still defending him, similar to how I felt when many of the same folks defended DA the last few disastrous seaseons

 

[AARPSaint]

Timing. If the Saints move on from Loomis as GM, that could delay the hiring of the new head coach. That said, if the Saints are looking at coaches from playoff teams—as they should—then the delay doesn’t matter that much. But, the preparation for the draft has to be underway by now unless the front office is negligent. That presumed process involves Loomis, so what happens if he’s no longer GM but someone else is GM? It’s a tortuous situation.

One thing is definite. It will be an eventful and interesting offseason.

 

[St. Geezy]

It's curious to me that as a GM with likely recently expanded roles (immediately after CSP left) who is supposedly in charge of a team that has literally been destroyed by bad decision after bad decision and is now likely the worst team in the NFL, would be immune from criticism.....I think at this point ML deserves some witch hunting.....I'm amazed how folks are still defending him, similar to how I felt when many of the same folks defended DA the last few disastrous seaseons

My mindset is this -

1. If you have a man in a GM spot for 23 years or however long it’s been, misfires and 2 to 4 year lulls are to be expected, especially when your team was built around a HOF QB and borderline HOF HC and they suddenly depart. The league’s system is literally designed for that sort of parity/law of averages thing to occur.

2. Due to off the field related things, I don’t think he’s being moved from unless he does it voluntarily, so it’s not worth setting myself up for disappointment when it doesn’t happen.

3. Too many injuries have occurred for me to blame this all on the GM or to think this man that has overseen our winningest period in franchise history has suddenly forgotten how to do the job.

I know many disagree though, and that’s fine.

 

[Hedon James]

My mindset is this -

1. If you have a man in a GM spot for 23 years or however long it’s been, misfires and 2 to 4 year lulls are to be expected, especially when your team was built around a HOF QB and borderline HOF HC and they suddenly depart. The league’s system is literally designed for that sort of parity/law of averages thing to occur.

2. Due to off the field related things, I don’t think he’s being moved from unless he does it voluntarily, so it’s not worth setting myself up for disappointment when it doesn’t happen.

3. Too many injuries have occurred for me to blame this all on the GM or to think this man that has overseen our winningest period in franchise history has suddenly forgotten how to do the job.

I know many disagree though, and that’s fine.

Fair enough...all good points. But my perspective is different obviously.

1. True, but it's not like the GM couldn't see this coming. We all saw DB9 deteriorating from his superhuman abilities, and compensating with experience; and CSP game planning and scheming to accommodate the strengths and mitigate the weaknesses. I feel like a GOOD GM woulda/coulda/shoulda saw this coming and made moves to alleviate/mitigate. The moves made were reactive in nature, rather than proactive, IMO.

2. Completely agree. Don't like it, and wish it weren't so, but dealing in reality, I believe you are correct.

3. Agree with you to an extent. Can't control injuries, so I don't blame ML for that, but that is what depth is for. ML decisions and strategies have gutted this team of DEPTH , which is needed to mitigate the injury fiasco. I feel like allowing the depth to be gutted was a voluntary and unnecessary exposure to the whims of the injury bug. For sure, every team goes through injury woes, but it's an EXPECTED part of the game. Admittedly, this the worst season of injury history I can remember. But another poster on this forum (can't remember name to give credit...sorry) indicated the team with the most "lost games to injury" for starters is.....DETROIT! The 14-2 Lions with an opportunity this weekend to lock up NFCN Division Title and homefield advantage throughout playoffs. That sounds like a team with DEPTH, and solid coaching of backups and/or scheming to accommodate the backups. I want that from the Saints GM, but can't have it due to our GMs philosophies.

I don't think ML forgot how to do his job. I think he's gotten too comfortable in his role, and is probably used to doing it a certain way and has failed to adapt quickly enough to the changing circumstances (see point #1 above). I'm not sure he can fix what he broke, or it wouldn't have broken in the first place. And something is definitely broken. That is MY OPINION, and that is how I arrived at that opinion.

You may be right, and time will tell if you are, because I absolutely think you are correct about #2. You just have WAY MORE faith in ML than I do. I have lost confidence in him, through his actions over the past 4-5 offseasons. Since I think a continued tenure of ML is inevitable, I sincerely hope you are correct and I am wrong. And again, I will gladly eat my crow however you want it served to me.

 

[SweetT]

It’s been reported recently that ML plans to hire someone that he is friends with or someone he knows well. Out of the HC options that leaves Aaron Glenn, Joe Brady, and Mike McCarthy

Those are 3 decent options

 

[Hedon James]

It’s been reported recently that ML plans to hire someone that he is friends with or someone he knows well. Out of the HC options that leaves Aaron Glenn, Joe Brady, and Mike McCarthy

Those are 3 decent options

I like Aaron Glenn and think he could be a really good HC. He has helped build that Detroit team from scratch, so that's a HUGE plus, IMO. And he seems to have suffered an inordinate amount of injuries on that Detroit defense, but keeps plugging in backups and winning games. The drop-off hasn't been precipitous. That sounds like good coaching to me....coaching up your backups and scheming around what THEY bring to the table. My only mis-giving about him is that he's a defensive-minded coach. That shouldn't disqualify him, but it doesn't give him the "edge" of retaining an offensive minded coach as HC for long tenure. OTOH....who might AG want to bring with him from the Detroit staff (not named Ben Johnson)? If anyone knows who the next Ben Johnson might be, I'll bet Aaron Glenn knows! But if AG picks the right guy to be his OC, we're likely to be looking for a new OC every 2-4 seasons, as the Saints OC scores a HC gig somewhere else.

The other thing I keep in mind with Aaron Glenn is his previous ties to the Jets organization, who are also looking for a quality HC. He's just as likely to be a Jets candidate as a Saints candidate, for the same reasons. I wonder what the Saints could offer that would tip the scales in our favor, if anything? Assuming he'd even be interested?

 

[Pkessling]

Mike Vrabel and Jon Gruden are reported as being people Loomis wants to interview for HC. No, no, no. Maybe Ditka is interested. Time for Loomis to move on.

 

[SweetT]

I like Aaron Glenn and think he could be a really good HC. He has helped build that Detroit team from scratch, so that's a HUGE plus, IMO. And he seems to have suffered an inordinate amount of injuries on that Detroit defense, but keeps plugging in backups and winning games. The drop-off hasn't been precipitous. That sounds like good coaching to me....coaching up your backups and scheming around what THEY bring to the table. My only mis-giving about him is that he's a defensive-minded coach. That shouldn't disqualify him, but it doesn't give him the "edge" of retaining an offensive minded coach as HC for long tenure. OTOH....who might AG want to bring with him from the Detroit staff (not named Ben Johnson)? If anyone knows who the next Ben Johnson might be, I'll bet Aaron Glenn knows! But if AG picks the right guy to be his OC, we're likely to be looking for a new OC every 2-4 seasons, as the Saints OC scores a HC gig somewhere else.

The other thing I keep in mind with Aaron Glenn is his previous ties to the Jets organization, who are also looking for a quality HC. He's just as likely to be a Jets candidate as a Saints candidate, for the same reasons. I wonder what the Saints could offer that would tip the scales in our favor, if anything? Assuming he'd even be interested?

Our Saints can offer a QB that isn’t a nut job like A-A-Ron Rodgers

 

[SweetT]

Mike Vrabel and Jon Gruden are reported as being people Loomis wants to interview for HC. No, no, no. Maybe Ditka is interested. Time for Loomis to move on.

Jon Gruden???
Is this true? I haven’t read anything about him and I hope that doesn’t happen

 

[Pkessling]

Jon Gruden???
Is this true? I haven’t read anything about him and I hope that doesn’t happen

Article claims that Loomis offered him the OC job before hiring KK. He rejected it and thaty Loomis is interested in talking about the HC job. We need new blood not some old school former HCs.