how many key/critial kicks will Grupe miss before it costs us (2 Viewers)

[Judge_Smails]

The cheapest offensive player on the team = 15 points, everyone else ZERO... Come on Man!

And since he’s a minor, his parents still control his money.

Kid can’t catch a break.

 

[stooge]

And that's fair to point out ....

But I'm curious if Carr was to go 22 for 22 in a game heading into his final drive.....with 4 TD passes........but the game is somehow still tied with 1:45 left.......completes 3 more passes to go 25 for 25 in an effort to get them in FG range.......only to throw an interception on his final pass, allowing the other team to get a game-winning FG instead..... and having a final stat line of 25/26 with 4 TD passes and 1 interception......would the forum be cool with just glossing over that ?

And that's fair to point out ....

But I'm curious if Carr was to go 22 for 22 in a game heading into his final drive.....with 4 TD passes........but the game is somehow still tied with 1:45 left.......completes 3 more passes to go 25 for 25 in an effort to get them in FG range.......only to throw an interception on his final pass, allowing the other team to get a game-winning FG instead..... and having a final stat line of 25/26 with 4 TD passes and 1 interception......would the forum be cool with just glossing over that ?

Wake me up when this happens.

 

[Artifactual]

It should not have come down to him making a 6th FG and creating a chance for an onside kick, which I don’t believe we would have recovered the way our luck goes.

When the Saints had chances for TDs, they came away with 5 FGs, so there’s that as far as Grupe doing his job and keeping us in the game. He also became the first rookie in team history to make FIVE FG’S in a game while tying a franchise-record for the most field goals made in a game.

You can't possibly be serious. The man hit 5 of 6 kicks. He should've never been kicking that much to begin with. And on top of that...do you really think the offense would've gotten an onside kick...and then somehow miraculously done something they had not done all game...and scored a TD?

Sorry, that last kick wasn't even fair for the kid. They rushed everything out there, didn't get set and just kicked a hail Mary. I think he makes it if we call a time out and let him get set properly. The *only* bright spot Sunday was Grupe.

Grupe was 5 for 5 before the last kick that was missed when the game was already decided with only one timeout and a less than a minute left.

He was literally the only reason the Saints were on the scoreboard in the game.

We have a QB who can’t throw any 10-30 yard TDs on 6 RZ-sub RZ attempts. But the 6th FG attempt, which is ridiculous, is somehow a critical kick to complain about after Grupe made 5 to carry the team.

Anything short of 7 out of 6 won't be enough.

The cheapest offensive player on the team = 15 points, everyone else ZERO... Come on Man!

All of This!

The Truth is a lot of folks here can't help but long for the 2017-2019 version of Will Lutz. There's no question that he was one of the best Saints kickers ever, but he wasn't without issues himself. His rookie year was often shaky at times. He missed the entire 2021 season due to injury. His 2022 season was far from his best with him going 23 out of 31, 74.2% on the year. Of the 20 kickers that attempted 31 or more FGs in 2022, Lutz was One of Only Four to have connected on fewer than 80% of their tries, with him having the worst percentage of them all.

2023 was the Final Year of Lutz contract with the Saints. Lutz, 29, and the Saints agreed to a reduction in his salary from $3.4 Million to $1.9 Million, With Incentives, for him to return to the team in 2023. The Saints brought in competition with an undrafted free agent kicker, Blake Grupe, who carried no draft investment and no guarantees. When the Saints kept Grupe in favor of Lutz they saved more than a Million Dollars in Salary Savings for 2023 with Grupe on a Rookie Contract that only pays him 750,883 in 2023. The Saints also gained a 2024 7th Round Draft Choice from the Broncos by trading Lutz to Denver. Had the Saints kept Lutz over Grupe they would not have gained the 2024 7th Round Draft Choice, would have paid an additional Million Dollars Plus Incentives, and would have no guarantee of Lutz returning in 2024 under any terms. The Saints signed Grupe to a 3 Year $2.7 Million Dollar contract that keeps him with the team, should the Saints decide to, for the next 2 years on the cheap.

Never in his career has Lutz made 5 FGs in a game. He hasn't been perfect in Denver, but he has been Very Good with his percentage of FG kicks made so far in 2023 at 92.3%. As far as the decision to keep Grupe over Lutz, it didn't just come down to money, but that is a factor that can't be ignored either, neither can the 7th Round 2024 Draft Pick the Saints got for trading Lutz. Keep in mind that Lutz would have been a free agent after 2023.

Let's dive a litter deeper into what Each has done so far in 2023.

Extra Point Attempts:

Lutz 18 out of 20
Grupe 19 out of 19

FG Attempts 0-19 Yards

Lutz 0 out of 0
Grupe 0 out of 0

FG Attempts 20-29 Yards

Lutz 8 out of 8
Grupe 7 out of 8

FG Attempts 30-39 Yards

Lutz 10 out of 11
Grupe 5 out of 5

FG Attempts 40-49 Yards

Lutz 3 out of 3
Grupe 7 out of 9

FG Attempts 50+ Yards

Lutz 3 out of 4
Grupe 5 out of 8

Lutz has made 24 FGs
Grupe has made 24 FGs
(They are tied for 3rd/4th place currently)

Overall FGs Made Out of FGs Attempted In 2023

Lutz 24 out of 26 (92.3%)
Grupe 24 out of 30 (80%)

Career Stats For Both Lutz and Grupe To Date

Lutz has kicked in 108 games.
Grupe has kicked in 11 games.

Lutz is now in his 7th season.
Grupe is a Rookie three quarters through his First season.

Lutz has a career kicking percentage of 85.5%
Grupe has a career kicking percentage of 80%.

Lutz had a kicking percentage of 82.4% in his Rookie year.
So far Grupe has a kicking percentage of 80% in his Rookie year.

While the overall percentage of Kicks Made leans heavily in favor of Lutz so far in 2023, what gets easily overlooked is the difficulty of the overall number of attempts by each. Lutz has been asked to attempt only 7 FGs from 40 plus yards while Grupe has been asked to attempt 17, Ten More from the same/further distance. To put that into perspective, Grupe has been asked to make More Than Twice the Amount of the More Difficult Attempts from more than 40 yards out than Lutz has. Grupe ranks 6th for FGs Made between 40-49 Yards, Lutz ranks 24th. Grupe ranks 7th for FGs Made 50+ yards, Lutz ranks 20th. The two most accurate kickers in NFL history, Younghoe Koo and Justin Tucker, rank 12th and 5th respectively for kicks made from 40-49 yards and rank 18th and 28th respectively on kicks made from 50+ yards.

On FG Attempts under 40 yards Lutz is 18 out of 19, 94.7%. On FG Attempts under 40 yards Grupe is 12 out of 13, 92.3%.

The Extra Point comparison needs little comment other than if Grupe had missed even 1, much less 2 Extra Points, one in which directly cost a game, the same folks here that want Grupes' head after a game in which he set a Saints Rookie Record and where he Tied a Saints Franchise Record would want to scalp the little fella.

Grupe to date has an 80% success rate of FGs Made to Attempts. As a Rookie, Lutz made 82.4% of his attempts when he was 28 out of 34.


A look at the Saints Rookie Kickers in Franchise History shows that 4 of them were a perfect 100% for the year on a limited number of kicks. Garrett Hartley (2008) was 13 out of 13, Brian Johnson (2021) was 8 out of 8, Russell Erxleben was 2 out of 2, and Mike Cofer (1987) was 1 out of 1. For those who attempted at least 15 FGs Will Lutz (2016) is 1st at 82.4%, Blake Grupe (2023) is 2nd so far at 80.0%, Richie Szaro (1975) is 3rd at 62.5%, Tom Dempsey (1969) is 4th at 53.7%, and Charlie Durkee (1967) is 5th at 43.8%.

Grupe is on pace in 2023 to make 37 FGs. That would eclipse Will Lutz 2016 Saints Franchise Record of 28 FGs made by a Rookie Kicker.
Grupe is on pace in 2023 to make 37 FGs. That would eclipse Will Lutz Saints All-Time Franchise Record of 32 FGs made in 2019.
Grupe is on pace in 2023 to attempt 46 FGs. That would eclipse the Saints Franchise Record by a Rookie with 34 attempts held by Will Lutz.
Grupe is on pace in 2023 to attempt 46 FGs. That would eclipse the Saints All-Time Franchise Record of 41 attempts by Tom Dempsey in 1969.

Yall doing too much tryna blame Grupe

Telling them the Truth and Confusing them with FACTS may not matter to some folks. See below.

These are the types of responses we immediately start seeing when someone mentions Grupe as a liability.

Some of the forum has developed an overprotective older sibling complex toward him, for whatever reason.

I theorize that some (not specifically the quoted poster, as I don't necessarily remember him doing this) are doing so because there was a lot of LOL GOOD RIDDANCE re: Lutz after the trade from some of our posters. And now they are back pedaling to justify their positions.

You may have confused me with THAT GUY, but I don't have an overprotective older sibling complex towards Grupe; However, I have posted the FACTS like I posted above and below in other threads that have been critical of him. Nobody here is back pedaling to justify anything. To be clear, I appreciate what Lutz brought to the Saints in his time here and I have never said good riddance to him. I don't recall anyone else posting that either. Let's stay on point and let the FACTS speak for themselves.

What I do see is a number of members here posting stuff like the current thread title reads and stuff like "Cut Grupe" (See: Grupe Thread, Grupe needs to be cut immediately Thread, ), which seems to be quite a harsh take and a bit premature.

I do agree that in todays NFL a kicker is expected to make more than 80% of his attempts and can't make a career doing it like All Of The Hall of Fame Kickers, Ken Strong (45.5%), Bill Dudley (50.0%), Bob Waterfield (56.3%), Lou Groza (56.9%), George Blanda (57%), Jan Stenerud (66.8%), or the Great Dane Morten Andersen (79.7%) DID in years past. Todays NFL kickers are expected to be more accurate.

As of today, Younghoe Koo is the Most Accurate Kicker of All-Time at 90.0% over his Career. Koo was 3 out of 6 (50%) in his Rookie year.

As of today, Justin Tucker is the 2nd Highest Accurate Kicker of All-Time at 89.9% in his Career. So far in 2023 Tucker is 21 out of 26 (80.8%).

An NFL Kicker is one of, if not the rarest of all athletes. He has 1 of only 32 jobs in the world held out of 8 million people. The amount of pressure each and every time they perform is beyond compare. The distance of kicks expected to be made increases every year.

Grupe is one of the few bright spots on the Saints 2023 season so far. He's not going to make every kick. No kicker does. It's not his fault that the Saints can't score touchdowns. They lean heavily on him to be their offensive scoring machine. And that's ok. It shouldn't have to be but it's part of the job, Rookie or not. The kid has a strong leg and plenty of confidence. As Saints fans we should all be behind him 100%.



Enough With The Facts! For some, their opinion is all that matters. We see that show up in these types of threads.

 

[SWJJ]

 

[SaintsFan83]

If the kicker has to kick five field goals because you can't reach the endzone with a wealth of talent at WR and an RB that is the franchise leader in TDs... its not the kicker that is the problem. I blame the play calling mostly... This offense has talent on it, but you'd never know it with how they struggle to score anymore.

 

[Jesse Custer]

Somehow not surprised that the guy who wanted to ship off Olave is also trying to deflect blame from Carr by getting annoyed that people don't agree with him on someone else.

 

[Merleaux]

All of This!

The Truth is a lot of folks here can't help but long for the 2017-2019 version of Will Lutz. There's no question that he was one of the best Saints kickers ever, but he wasn't without issues himself. His rookie year was often shaky at times. He missed the entire 2021 season due to injury. His 2022 season was far from his best with him going 23 out of 31, 74.2% on the year. Of the 20 kickers that attempted 31 or more FGs in 2022, Lutz was One of Only Four to have connected on fewer than 80% of their tries, with him having the worst percentage of them all.

2023 was the Final Year of Lutz contract with the Saints. Lutz, 29, and the Saints agreed to a reduction in his salary from $3.4 Million to $1.9 Million, With Incentives, for him to return to the team in 2023. The Saints brought in competition with an undrafted free agent kicker, Blake Grupe, who carried no draft investment and no guarantees. When the Saints kept Grupe in favor of Lutz they saved more than a Million Dollars in Salary Savings for 2023 with Grupe on a Rookie Contract that only pays him 750,883 in 2023. The Saints also gained a 2024 7th Round Draft Choice from the Broncos by trading Lutz to Denver. Had the Saints kept Lutz over Grupe they would not have gained the 2024 7th Round Draft Choice, would have paid an additional Million Dollars Plus Incentives, and would have no guarantee of Lutz returning in 2024 under any terms. The Saints signed Grupe to a 3 Year $2.7 Million Dollar contract that keeps him with the team, should the Saints decide to, for the next 2 years on the cheap.

Never in his career has Lutz made 5 FGs in a game. He hasn't been perfect in Denver, but he has been Very Good with his percentage of FG kicks made so far in 2023 at 92.3%. As far as the decision to keep Grupe over Lutz, it didn't just come down to money, but that is a factor that can't be ignored either, neither can the 7th Round 2024 Draft Pick the Saints got for trading Lutz. Keep in mind that Lutz would have been a free agent after 2023.

Let's dive a litter deeper into what Each has done so far in 2023.

Extra Point Attempts:

Lutz 18 out of 20
Grupe 19 out of 19

FG Attempts 0-19 Yards

Lutz 0 out of 0
Grupe 0 out of 0

FG Attempts 20-29 Yards

Lutz 8 out of 8
Grupe 7 out of 8

FG Attempts 30-39 Yards

Lutz 10 out of 11
Grupe 5 out of 5

FG Attempts 40-49 Yards

Lutz 3 out of 3
Grupe 7 out of 9

FG Attempts 50+ Yards

Lutz 3 out of 4
Grupe 5 out of 8

Lutz has made 24 FGs
Grupe has made 24 FGs
(They are tied for 3rd/4th place currently)

Overall FGs Made Out of FGs Attempted In 2023

Lutz 24 out of 26 (92.3%)
Grupe 24 out of 30 (80%)

Career Stats For Both Lutz and Grupe To Date

Lutz has kicked in 108 games.
Grupe has kicked in 11 games.

Lutz is now in his 7th season.
Grupe is a Rookie three quarters through his First season.

Lutz has a career kicking percentage of 85.5%
Grupe has a career kicking percentage of 80%.

Lutz had a kicking percentage of 82.4% in his Rookie year.
So far Grupe has a kicking percentage of 80% in his Rookie year.

While the overall percentage of Kicks Made leans heavily in favor of Lutz so far in 2023, what gets easily overlooked is the difficulty of the overall number of attempts by each. Lutz has been asked to attempt only 7 FGs from 40 plus yards while Grupe has been asked to attempt 17, Ten More from the same/further distance. To put that into perspective, Grupe has been asked to make More Than Twice the Amount of the More Difficult Attempts from more than 40 yards out than Lutz has. Grupe ranks 6th for FGs Made between 40-49 Yards, Lutz ranks 24th. Grupe ranks 7th for FGs Made 50+ yards, Lutz ranks 20th. The two most accurate kickers in NFL history, Younghoe Koo and Justin Tucker, rank 12th and 5th respectively for kicks made from 40-49 yards and rank 18th and 28th respectively on kicks made from 50+ yards.

On FG Attempts under 40 yards Lutz is 18 out of 19, 94.7%. On FG Attempts under 40 yards Grupe is 12 out of 13, 92.3%.

The Extra Point comparison needs little comment other than if Grupe had missed even 1, much less 2 Extra Points, one in which directly cost a game, the same folks here that want Grupes' head after a game in which he set a Saints Rookie Record and where he Tied a Saints Franchise Record would want to scalp the little fella.

Grupe to date has an 80% success rate of FGs Made to Attempts. As a Rookie, Lutz made 82.4% of his attempts when he was 28 out of 34.


A look at the Saints Rookie Kickers in Franchise History shows that 4 of them were a perfect 100% for the year on a limited number of kicks. Garrett Hartley (2008) was 13 out of 13, Brian Johnson (2021) was 8 out of 8, Russell Erxleben was 2 out of 2, and Mike Cofer (1987) was 1 out of 1. For those who attempted at least 15 FGs Will Lutz (2016) is 1st at 82.4%, Blake Grupe (2023) is 2nd so far at 80.0%, Richie Szaro (1975) is 3rd at 62.5%, Tom Dempsey (1969) is 4th at 53.7%, and Charlie Durkee (1967) is 5th at 43.8%.

Grupe is on pace in 2023 to make 37 FGs. That would eclipse Will Lutz 2016 Saints Franchise Record of 28 FGs made by a Rookie Kicker.
Grupe is on pace in 2023 to make 37 FGs. That would eclipse Will Lutz Saints All-Time Franchise Record of 32 FGs made in 2019.
Grupe is on pace in 2023 to attempt 46 FGs. That would eclipse the Saints Franchise Record by a Rookie with 34 attempts held by Will Lutz.
Grupe is on pace in 2023 to attempt 46 FGs. That would eclipse the Saints All-Time Franchise Record of 41 attempts by Tom Dempsey in 1969.



Telling them the Truth and Confusing them with FACTS may not matter to some folks. See below.



You may have confused me with THAT GUY, but I don't have an overprotective older sibling complex towards Grupe; However, I have posted the FACTS like I posted above and below in other threads that have been critical of him. Nobody here is back pedaling to justify anything. To be clear, I appreciate what Lutz brought to the Saints in his time here and I have never said good riddance to him. I don't recall anyone else posting that either. Let's stay on point and let the FACTS speak for themselves.

What I do see is a number of members here posting stuff like the current thread title reads and stuff like "Cut Grupe" (See: Grupe Thread, Grupe needs to be cut immediately Thread, ), which seems to be quite a harsh take and a bit premature.

I do agree that in todays NFL a kicker is expected to make more than 80% of his attempts and can't make a career doing it like All Of The Hall of Fame Kickers, Ken Strong (45.5%), Bill Dudley (50.0%), Bob Waterfield (56.3%), Lou Groza (56.9%), George Blanda (57%), Jan Stenerud (66.8%), or the Great Dane Morten Andersen (79.7%) DID in years past. Todays NFL kickers are expected to be more accurate.

As of today, Younghoe Koo is the Most Accurate Kicker of All-Time at 90.0% over his Career. Koo was 3 out of 6 (50%) in his Rookie year.

As of today, Justin Tucker is the 2nd Highest Accurate Kicker of All-Time at 89.9% in his Career. So far in 2023 Tucker is 21 out of 26 (80.8%).

An NFL Kicker is one of, if not the rarest of all athletes. He has 1 of only 32 jobs in the world held out of 8 million people. The amount of pressure each and every time they perform is beyond compare. The distance of kicks expected to be made increases every year.

Grupe is one of the few bright spots on the Saints 2023 season so far. He's not going to make every kick. No kicker does. It's not his fault that the Saints can't score touchdowns. They lean heavily on him to be their offensive scoring machine. And that's ok. It shouldn't have to be but it's part of the job, Rookie or not. The kid has a strong leg and plenty of confidence. As Saints fans we should all be behind him 100%.



Enough With The Facts! For some, their opinion is all that matters. We see that show up in these types of threads.

The stats really do help to put things in perspective, so thank you for that extensive research.

 

[1K SPORT]

I know he hit 5, but if Bama could get an 0.o1% touchdown then we had a chance as much as dumb and dumber if grupe hit his last kick. Staying down 9 instead of 6 was finito. Not that he is bad but he is not a game winner or critical kick maker so far this year. Not enough of a salary cap save if that is the only we can score. Yes, I had given up but then I realized we might have recovered an onside and hit a miracle to give the Dirty birds another legendary flop. Gotta hit that last kick Grupe

I hope you find the attention your looking for.

 

[Holy Avenger]

Allen bringing in kickers after Sunday's game is where he lost me. Is that the problem DENNIS? QB aside you have more talent on this team than any pre-Payton squad in a horrible division and you're trying to send a message to the kicker. It's you who is the problem, look inward. Go cut Grupe then tough guy, there will be 5 teams offering him a contract within 10 minutes, dummy.

Bad coaches start picking fights with special teams.

 

[srcampbell]

I hate this coaching staff right now! Of all the problems we have, they bring in KICKERS! Are you kidding me! A post I read on X said it best: “The house is on fire and the Saints coaches are replacing the mailbox.” We need to be trying out interim coaches, not kickers.

 

[StudioSaint]

Allen bringing in kickers after Sunday's game is where he lost me. Is that the problem DENNIS? QB aside you have more talent on this team than any pre-Payton squad in a horrible division and you're trying to send a message to the kicker. It's you who is the problem, look inward. Go cut Grupe then tough guy, there will be 5 teams offering him a contract within 10 minutes, dummy.

Bad coaches start picking fights with special teams.

Grupe had a injury issue last week. I think it was a groin issue. He kicked 6 FG's and 4 or 5 kickoffs. Maybe Grupe aggravated a minor issue and that's why Allen is trying out kickers. I didn't read the whole thread, so I may have missed that Allen said that trying out kickers was because Grupe missed the one FG. If Allen didn't say that, then it might be about health concerns and not about trying to send Grupe a message.

 

[Holy Avenger]

Grupe had a injury issue last week. I think it was a groin issue. He kicked 6 FG's and 4 or 5 kickoffs. Maybe Grupe aggravated a minor issue and that's why Allen is trying out kickers. I didn't read the whole thread, so I may have missed that Allen said that trying out kickers was because Grupe missed the one FG. If Allen didn't say that, then it might be about health concerns and not about trying to send Grupe a message.

Oh. haha. Well, that's good foresight to have in mind if Grupe gets worse so you know who the first guy you're going to call is. Thanks for the reply. It's good I'm just posting hot takes on a message board then. Carry on.

 

[Loco Hornet Fan]

I know he hit 5, but if Bama could get an 0.o1% touchdown then we had a chance as much as dumb and dumber if grupe hit his last kick. Staying down 9 instead of 6 was finito. Not that he is bad but he is not a game winner or critical kick maker so far this year. Not enough of a salary cap save if that is the only we can score. Yes, I had given up but then I realized we might have recovered an onside and hit a miracle to give the Dirty birds another legendary flop. Gotta hit that last kick Grupe

He was playing with an injured groin but was forced to be our entire scoring offense for the day (and much of the season).

The kicking team also had to rush onto the field and it was a 54 yard kick. That distance isn’t necessarily automatic, even for NFL kickers, and especially not for one with a groin injury.

If we are talking about players who “cost us” then he would be very (very) low on my list.

 

[Loco Hornet Fan]

And that's fair to point out ....

But I'm curious if Carr was to go 22 for 22 in a game heading into his final drive.....with 4 TD passes........but the game is somehow still tied with 1:45 left.......completes 3 more passes to go 25 for 25 in an effort to get them in FG range.......only to throw an interception on his final pass, allowing the other team to get a game-winning FG instead..... and having a final stat line of 25/26 with 4 TD passes and 1 interception......would the forum be cool with just glossing over that ?

Do you truly think the majority of the forum would be like "come on guys, he played a brilliant game outside of that one pass" ?

I still think that would be considered a good game and put him low on the list of things that cost us that hypothetical game.

It also kind of depends on the interception. Was Carr hit on the play? Did the db just make an awesome play on a good throw? Or did he make an awful read and throw a duck into double coverage? I think that matters a bit.

Grupe was a rookie playing with a groin injury (which sounds like it could be a big deal for a kicker) and missed a long field goal while he & the special teams unit had to sprint out on the field & rush the snap/kick. That kick also wouldn’t have led to us tying or winning the game, or given the other team the win.

He missed the kick and that’s definitely not good. We need him to get better (and hopefully he will) but I do think it’s a bit silly to have a thread like this about him after Sunday’s game. Just my opinion.

 

[Loco Hornet Fan]

Why we went for a FG doesn't even make sense. Should be a fireable offense there. So afraid go for it. You settle on a FG on the drive before which was really bad.

That’s where I land too. We were down 9 and it was only 4th & 3.

To rush a 54 yard kick over going for that was so cowardly.