Ian Rapoport: Saints to make a decision on Taysom Hill; hard to imagine Hill returning [T.Hill is turning 35 w/ 18M cap hit & ACL recovery] (14 Viewers)

[sfidc3]

Father Time is absolutely undefeated. But he's losing ground a little bit. Players take such good care of themselves these days. QB's can play into their 40's, RB's can play into their 30's. We are trotting out a 36 year old MLB for pete's sack. That said, Taysom is one of those types of players that I would bank on being able to extend his career beyond what most 35 year olds are capable of. Hope so at least.

Players playing past their supposed expiration dates is nothing new, I think the reason there may be a few more are medical advances....

For TH, maybe, but I wouldn't gamble on it too hard....

 

[Pocket Hercules]

You're using the logical fallacy of "ad ignorantiam"/"argument from ignorance." The lack of evidence of something does not prove it to be false.

Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy (29 Examples + Description)

The human mind is a fascinating playground where logical thinking and emotional reasoning constantly battle. You're here because you've heard about the

practicalpie.com

Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia

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I'm not saying there is "another Hill." I'm saying that there are some players who can do enough of what Hill does to be a viable backup to him when he can't play. Other teams don't have an equal player to Hill, so they are not looking for a backup similar to Hill, they are looking for an equivalent, starter quality version of Hill. Those are very different things that don't require the same level of talent and ability.

A lesser version of Hill doesn't create the matchup advantages that effectively make him the weapon he is. It's pointless.

We know that there isn't another Hill, because we've heard countless times from other coaching staffs that they would love to have a player similar to him, yet no player in the NFL is even coming close to doing what he does. If the best minds within the best league of the sport verbalize wanting something yet cannot find it, that's a strong piece of evidence that it doesn't exist. Our new head coach stood at a podium in his introductory press conference last week and stated precisely that.

Since you seem to know better than the last three Saints coaches and every other coach around the league who has stated that they'd like to have a player similar to Hill: name another player in the league who is capable (or even willing) to learn every offensive skill position, then go out and run, catch, throw, AND block at a plus level in the NFL. I'll wait...

 

[dutar76]

A lesser version of Hill doesn't create the matchup advantages that effectively make him the weapon he is. It's pointless.

We know that there isn't another Hill, because we've heard countless times from other coaching staffs that they would love to have a player similar to him, yet no player in the NFL is even coming close to doing what he does. If the best minds within the best league of the sport verbalize wanting something yet cannot find it, that's a strong piece of evidence that it doesn't exist. Our new head coach stood at a podium in his introductory press conference last week and stated precisely that.

Since you seem to know better than the last three Saints coaches and every other coach around the league who has stated that they'd like to have a player similar to Hill: name another player in the league who is capable (or even willing) to learn every offensive skill position, then go out and run, catch, throw, AND block at a plus level in the NFL. I'll wait...

There's a lot of college players "willing" to learn all the Taysom roles, but evidently there's none capable. First, they need to be an NFL quality QB with wheels and the size to plow through tackles. Then there's route running, catching, blocking, and whatever the knack is that he has on special teams. And even with all that... they'd have to not really be "great" enough at any one position so they don't get pigeon holed into one position by a coach that lacks the creativity to utilize a position-less player.

There's been multi-role players in the league from time to time, there's been RBs that act more like receivers and WRs that run a lot. Corderelle Patterson is one that comes to mind. There's also been QBs that teams tried to turn into receivers and plenty of hybrid TE/WRs. Only been a few FB/RB/WRs but not had a ton of success.
Yeah, Taysom is worth his weight in gold plus some. One of the most unique players that found himself in the right place at the right time with the right head coach (SP) for him to become what he has been for us.

I'm a little puzzled why more teams haven't attempted to find their Taysom. I really can't think of any that has tried. At least not on game days. For sure it would be tough to draft a player with this role in mind. Almost impossible. Maybe search for UDFA QBs that have the traits? That's where I'd look tbh, but roster spots are a valuable commodity in the league. Finding a college QB that can play special teams probably sounds easier than it is.

I do think Tebow could've been something along those lines, and I think Coach SP asked him. But he was dead-set on QB or nothing. Regardless he's made his money and career behind the microphone, so good on him.

 

[St. Geezy]

There's a lot of college players "willing" to learn all the Taysom roles, but evidently there's none capable. First, they need to be an NFL quality QB with wheels and the size to plow through tackles. Then there's route running, catching, blocking, and whatever the knack is that he has on special teams. And even with all that... they'd have to not really be "great" enough at any one position so they don't get pigeon holed into one position by a coach that lacks the creativity to utilize a position-less player.

There's been multi-role players in the league from time to time, there's been RBs that act more like receivers and WRs that run a lot. Corderelle Patterson is one that comes to mind. There's also been QBs that teams tried to turn into receivers and plenty of hybrid TE/WRs. Only been a few FB/RB/WRs but not had a ton of success.
Yeah, Taysom is worth his weight in gold plus some. One of the most unique players that found himself in the right place at the right time with the right head coach (SP) for him to become what he has been for us.

I'm a little puzzled why more teams haven't attempted to find their Taysom. I really can't think of any that has tried. At least not on game days. For sure it would be tough to draft a player with this role in mind. Almost impossible. Maybe search for UDFA QBs that have the traits? That's where I'd look tbh, but roster spots are a valuable commodity in the league. Finding a college QB that can play special teams probably sounds easier than it is.

I do think Tebow could've been something along those lines, and I think Coach SP asked him. But he was dead-set on QB or nothing. Regardless he's made his money and career behind the microphone, so good on him.

I honestly think Jalen Milroe is a guy we need to give a long look at if he’s there in round 2.

Good QB prospect that could be the future signal caller we all crave, but at absolute worst, I think he can do many of the things Taysom does.

Say what you want about his QB skills, but he is an absolutely incredible athlete, with size.

 

[dutar76]

I honestly think Jalen Milroe is a guy we need to give a long look at if he’s there in round 2.

Good QB prospect that could be the future signal caller we all crave, but at absolute worst, I think he can do many of the things Taysom does.

Say what you want about his QB skills, but he is an absolutely incredible athlete, with size.

With him, I think the issue might be the "willingness" to admit he's not a "face of the franchise" level of NFL QB. Being drafted in the 2nd round would probably cement that in his head. And even if he were to become another Fields... bouncing around as a back-up, it would always be in his mind that he could get another shot at it. Basically what I think happened with Tebow.

 

[sfidc3]

I'm a little puzzled why more teams haven't attempted to find their Taysom.

Had we won a SB with TH my guess is teams would, but we didn't/haven't.....he is a bit of an enigma, don't think there are any other TH's out there TBH....

 

[DSnfla]

Your missing the most important point.....TH is 35, those guys are all in their 20's, with AK turning 30 before next season....

Father time wins all battles, and this is assuming that TH will be back this season.....he may retire or the Saints may release him.....I honestly hope (if healthy) they can bring him back at a reduced rate....

Also, I love TH, and wish he were in his 20's or even 30, but I feel his time with the Saints is coming to a close.....

Yes in a vacuum TH will be 35 at the start of the season , and father time does win all battles, But TH's 35 is not like a 35 your old player that has been playing 13 yrs because he has not. Also his usage is not like a RB or TE or WR. In 8 yrs TH has only had 437 rushing attempts and caught only 99 passes. He avg 71 rushing attempts per 17 games and 16 rec.
It's not like he has been high usage

 

[St. Geezy]

Yes in a vacuum TH will be 35 at the start of the season , and father time does win all battles, But TH's 35 is not like a 35 your old player that has been playing 13 yrs because he has not. Also his usage is not like a RB or TE or WR. In 8 yrs TH has only had 437 rushing attempts and caught only 99 passes. He avg 71 rushing attempts per 17 games and 16 rec.
It's not like he has been high usage

Agreed. The focus on Taysom’s age should be redirected to his usage. Still plenty of tread on those tires.

I also think that he is such a great athlete, than even 75% of Taysom is still a very abnormally effective NFL player.

I think 38-39 will be his tipping point. At that point, age will indeed be what takes him out.

 

[Snakehead]

There's a lot of college players "willing" to learn all the Taysom roles, but evidently there's none capable. First, they need to be an NFL quality QB with wheels and the size to plow through tackles. Then there's route running, catching, blocking, and whatever the knack is that he has on special teams. And even with all that... they'd have to not really be "great" enough at any one position so they don't get pigeon holed into one position by a coach that lacks the creativity to utilize a position-less player.

There's been multi-role players in the league from time to time, there's been RBs that act more like receivers and WRs that run a lot. Corderelle Patterson is one that comes to mind. There's also been QBs that teams tried to turn into receivers and plenty of hybrid TE/WRs. Only been a few FB/RB/WRs but not had a ton of success.
Yeah, Taysom is worth his weight in gold plus some. One of the most unique players that found himself in the right place at the right time with the right head coach (SP) for him to become what he has been for us.

I'm a little puzzled why more teams haven't attempted to find their Taysom. I really can't think of any that has tried. At least not on game days. For sure it would be tough to draft a player with this role in mind. Almost impossible. Maybe search for UDFA QBs that have the traits? That's where I'd look tbh, but roster spots are a valuable commodity in the league. Finding a college QB that can play special teams probably sounds easier than it is.

I do think Tebow could've been something along those lines, and I think Coach SP asked him. But he was dead-set on QB or nothing. Regardless he's made his money and career behind the microphone, so good on him.

Exactly. There are plenty of guys who can play multiple positions at a high level, but the biggest difference between them and Taysom is the willingness to do it.

If Milroe said he'd be willing to play any position, he could be an absolute force in that role. He could easily play some QB, RB, TE and WR. I don't know anything about his defensive ability, but just those positions on offense would be a huge weapon.

I really like Savion Williams out of TCU. He's a former QB and supposedly he can throw 80 yards. At 6'5", he has long arms and looks to have huge hands. There's highlights of him doing almost everything from an offensive skill position. He's a guy I would target b/c he could be the Big X, but he can also run the ball like a RB and you can mix in some passing plays for him due to his arm.

If a player was smart, he'd accept the Taysom role in college and train to it. It's almost a specialty role which could be a quick way onto an NFL roster.

 

[dutar76]

Exactly. There are plenty of guys who can play multiple positions at a high level, but the biggest difference between them and Taysom is the willingness to do it.

If Milroe said he'd be willing to play any position, he could be an absolute force in that role. He could easily play some QB, RB, TE and WR. I don't know anything about his defensive ability, but just those positions on offense would be a huge weapon.

I really like Savion Williams out of TCU. He's a former QB and supposedly he can throw 80 yards. At 6'5", he has long arms and looks to have huge hands. There's highlights of him doing almost everything from an offensive skill position. He's a guy I would target b/c he could be the Big X, but he can also run the ball like a RB and you can mix in some passing plays for him due to his arm.

If a player was smart, he'd accept the Taysom role in college and train to it. It's almost a specialty role which could be a quick way onto an NFL roster.

Milroe is a lot like Hurts coming out of college. It would not surprise me if Kellen decided to draft him and find out.
Savion is one of my favorite WRs in this class. I haven't seen too much on him but what I have seen gives me Michael Thomas vibes... but bigger.

I would almost think the "Taysom-like" player needs to be a high level starting QB in college. Maybe just not high level enough to get drafted high as a QB.
Remember, putting Taysom under center meant taking HOF QB Drew Brees off the field for that play. THAT is unthinkable. Every single play in the NFL is crucial. Taysom had to be a legit threat to throw it and he was. (just not the deep ball by any means).

Saints drafted a QB Tommy Stevens in the 7th round of the 2020 draft. At the time I remember talk of him having those traits. He ended up being almost a
"run-only" QB in the Canadian League. So that makes me think he didn't have anywhere near an NFL arm to go with the wheels. He's a big dude though.



His stats show what I'm talking about. If you can't throw in Canada, you're gonna have a hard time throwing in the league.



Maybe there's another college QB out there who eventually follows in Taysom's footsteps, but I actually kind of doubt it.
It's a copy-cat league when something new is proven to work, and no team has actually tried to copy-cat the Taysom role.
That says a LOT.

 

[dutar76]

Yes in a vacuum TH will be 35 at the start of the season , and father time does win all battles, But TH's 35 is not like a 35 your old player that has been playing 13 yrs because he has not. Also his usage is not like a RB or TE or WR. In 8 yrs TH has only had 437 rushing attempts and caught only 99 passes. He avg 71 rushing attempts per 17 games and 16 rec.
It's not like he has been high usage

Can't argue with this take. Taysom looked like Taysom every time he got the ball in his hands this past season. I didn't see any drop off.

But I do think age plays a factor in recovery time and recovery %. That was an ugly knee injury. The question is more "can he recover fully from that at 35 years old?" than it is "does he have anymore left in the tank?" I think there's plenty in the tank if he gets back to 100%.

The question for the Saints, especially with the new coaching regime probably has more to do with the cap hit. Same as with several players. Whereas Sean and Dennis obviously would have a ton of "loyalty" to guys like Jordan, Davis, and Taysom, I'd think Kellen and company would have more "respect" than "loyalty".
My thinking is that "loyalty" would have you keeping a player past his prime who has a huge cap hit, where as respect just has you releasing them early enough that they can explore the FA market.

NOTE: I'm not saying that Kellen Moore is going to release these heroes, just explaining the "why" if he were to do so.
NOTE 2: Same goes for Honey Badger.
NOTE 3: I have no idea what Kellen is going to want to do with Carr. That's the subject of 1000 other threads.

 

[Snakehead]

Milroe is a lot like Hurts coming out of college. It would not surprise me if Kellen decided to draft him and find out.
Savion is one of my favorite WRs in this class. I haven't seen too much on him but what I have seen gives me Michael Thomas vibes... but bigger.

I would almost think the "Taysom-like" player needs to be a high level starting QB in college. Maybe just not high level enough to get drafted high as a QB.
Remember, putting Taysom under center meant taking HOF QB Drew Brees off the field for that play. THAT is unthinkable. Every single play in the NFL is crucial. Taysom had to be a legit threat to throw it and he was. (just not the deep ball by any means).

Saints drafted a QB Tommy Stevens in the 7th round of the 2020 draft. At the time I remember talk of him having those traits. He ended up being almost a
"run-only" QB in the Canadian League. So that makes me think he didn't have anywhere near an NFL arm to go with the wheels. He's a big dude though.



His stats show what I'm talking about. If you can't throw in Canada, you're gonna have a hard time throwing in the league.



Maybe there's another college QB out there who eventually follows in Taysom's footsteps, but I actually kind of doubt it.
It's a copy-cat league when something new is proven to work, and no team has actually tried to copy-cat the Taysom role.
That says a LOT.

I agree that Milroe is similar to Hurts and can see CKM trying to recreate that here, however, even though it worked there doesn't mean it will work here. He's on record and has proof to show that he builds the offense around the players' strengths. I'm curious what his perfect QB is. We know SP wanted a QB who could mentally handle his offense and Brees was a perfect fit.

He's talked about physicality and we are missing that outside of a few players. Drafting Savion, HFJr and Jeanty would add physicality to the offense.

Savion and HFJr can do multiple things on offense which could spread some of the Taysom capabilities across different players allowing CKM to keep things "basic" looking, but run different plays from those formations. Savion and HFJr have the ability to rush the ball, Savion can throw, both can receive and block while being explosive.

 

[3ParStillDriver]

Agreed. The focus on Taysom’s age should be redirected to his usage. Still plenty of tread on those tires.

I also think that he is such a great athlete, than even 75% of Taysom is still a very abnormally effective NFL player.

I think 38-39 will be his tipping point. At that point, age will indeed be what takes him out.

Idk. The guy missed half the season this past year. If thats because of age, then how much will he miss this year? I'd almost rather ship him off to Denver for a 2026 5th if it gets us out of his contract.

I can't tell you how much I love watching Taysom run the ball and hit people, but If we're going to truly look towards a soft rebuild, keeping a 35 year old (as of Aug) utility player eating millions on the cap that can't stay healthy for a full season doesn't fit the narrative

 

[Elvis]

Milroe is a lot like Hurts coming out of college. It would not surprise me if Kellen decided to draft him and find out.
Savion is one of my favorite WRs in this class. I haven't seen too much on him but what I have seen gives me Michael Thomas vibes... but bigger.

I would almost think the "Taysom-like" player needs to be a high level starting QB in college. Maybe just not high level enough to get drafted high as a QB.
Remember, putting Taysom under center meant taking HOF QB Drew Brees off the field for that play. THAT is unthinkable. Every single play in the NFL is crucial. Taysom had to be a legit threat to throw it and he was. (just not the deep ball by any means).

Saints drafted a QB Tommy Stevens in the 7th round of the 2020 draft. At the time I remember talk of him having those traits. He ended up being almost a
"run-only" QB in the Canadian League. So that makes me think he didn't have anywhere near an NFL arm to go with the wheels. He's a big dude though.



His stats show what I'm talking about. If you can't throw in Canada, you're gonna have a hard time throwing in the league.



Maybe there's another college QB out there who eventually follows in Taysom's footsteps, but I actually kind of doubt it.
It's a copy-cat league when something new is proven to work, and no team has actually tried to copy-cat the Taysom role.
That says a LOT.

I think Riley Leonard might be that guy this year. 6’ 4” around 220lbs. 21 passing TDs and 17 rushing TDs this year. Will probably be there in the 7th.

 

[Chuck McGill Esq.]

Agreed. The focus on Taysom’s age should be redirected to his usage. Still plenty of tread on those tires.

I also think that he is such a great athlete, than even 75% of Taysom is still a very abnormally effective NFL player.

I think 38-39 will be his tipping point. At that point, age will indeed be what takes him out.

I'd like to see the data for elite athletes returning from a torn ACL at 35. I agree Taysom's 35 is not equivalent to other high usage players that have wear and tear, but that injury is no joke.