Ingram benched [OLD THREAD BUMPED] (1 Viewer)

[Randy Jones]

I'd love back-to-back 100 yard games and I wouldn't care who's carrying it or whether it was because they're bad. It would likely mean that we're productive and hopefully that means we win . . . cause that's all I give a crap about right now.

Why? We have had a top ten scoring offenses during most of Payton's tenure and many years a top 5. Mostly due to the best passing attack in the league. Why mess with success?

 

[kcirdor]

Why? We have had a top ten scoring offenses during most of Payton's tenure and many years a top 5. Mostly due to the best passing attack in the league. Why mess with success?

As demonstrated this past Sunday, When you commit to running the ball and feeding a player 25 carries, it wears down the defense. it allows your defense to rest. It shortens the game overall so we aren't playing 30 to 30 games any more.

Shall I find my spread sheet that I made detailing what committing to the run will do for you from our 2009 season?

Edit: I shall.

http://saintsreport.com/forums/atta...-celebrated-saints-09-1st-half-play-count.xls

 

[HayBear]

Sunday will also mark a full calendar year since Ingram ran the ball 20 times in a game. In that year, he's averaged about 11 carries per game.

Ingram is a back that wears down defenses, he's shown it time and time again in his career. But for whatever reason, Payton refuses to give him the ball 20-25 times a game.

"Wears down defenses"......if he did this on a regular basis, he would be All-Pro. But the fact is, he simply does not.

 

[DaveXA]

"Wears down defenses"......if he did this on a regular basis, he would be All-Pro. But the fact is, he simply does not.

At 11 carries per game, you can't expect him to. You need to get 20-25 carries before you start to see a running game wear down a good defense. Which was pretty apparent at the end of the Seattle game. Payton just does not call enough running plays normally.

I don't mind Ingram being benched, but he would have been useful in those short yardage situations when we couldn't punch it in. If Ingram has really excelled at anything this season, that's definitely at the top of the list.

 

[kcirdor]

"Wears down defenses"......if he did this on a regular basis, he would be All-Pro. But the fact is, he simply does not.

You first have to commit to running the ball. Something that Sean promises game after game, yet gets away from almost immediately.

 

[bclemms]

576 carries, 2181 yards, 3.76 yards per carry, 11 TD.

That's what Ingram has done with his carries when games were 2 scores or less at the time of his carries.

In case anyone is wondering, that's less than any Saints RB during Ingram's tenure the entire time he's been in New Orleans. Dead last.

That's a TD every 52.36 carries.

That's a yard per carry average that gets players released.


So yeah, like I said, he goes off against bad teams when we have a huge lead, teams that have been demoralized by Brees. When it matters most, Ingram is one of the worst RB's in the league. He's continues to show it time and time again.

 

[BoNcHiE]

The problem is his contract. What do you do? Release him next year and eat 3.2m in dead money?

I don't think so. He'll be a part of this offense through 2017. We just need to get smarter in how we use him. He's probably a better 3rd down back then he is a 1st down back because he's a pretty good receiver.

 

[crosswatt]

The problem is his contract. What do you do? Release him next year and eat 3.2m in dead money?

I don't think so. He'll be a part of this offense through 2017. We just need to get smarter in how we use him. He's probably a better 3rd down back then he is a 1st down back because he's a pretty good receiver.

To be fair, $3.2 million is peanuts compared to next year's projected cap.

I'm not advocating to get rid of him, just pointing out that his contract is probably not the deciding factor for whichever way they choose to go.

 

[BoNcHiE]

To be fair, $3.2 million is peanuts compared to next year's projected cap.

I'm not advocating to get rid of him, just pointing out that his contract is probably not the deciding factor for whichever way they choose to go.

Problem is you only save 1.9m to eat that 3.2m.

You'd be getting rid of him just to get rid of him. You don't gain much of anything. At least as a backup you can still get some value.

 

[bigdub81]

Man y'all can debate about this until your blue in the face, but the fact remains that Ingram needs to fix an issue and Payton is not having it. Hightower is hungry, we fed him and he produced, plain and simple. I don't want Ingram gone, nor am I here to dump on him. I just want an old fashioned, punishing, violent running RB and Hightower gives us that.

 

[blackadder]

576 carries, 2181 yards, 3.76 yards per carry, 11 TD.

That's what Ingram has done with his carries when games were 2 scores or less at the time of his carries.

In case anyone is wondering, that's less than any Saints RB during Ingram's tenure the entire time he's been in New Orleans. Dead last.

That's a TD every 52.36 carries.

That's a yard per carry average that gets players released.


So yeah, like I said, he goes off against bad teams when we have a huge lead, teams that have been demoralized by Brees. When it matters most, Ingram is one of the worst RB's in the league. He's continues to show it time and time again.

The way this game ended foreshadowed Ingram's career falling short of expectations around draft status.

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2011/9/9/2413951/saints-vs-packers-score-rodgers-green-bay-new-orleans

 

[DaveXA]

The way this game ended foreshadowed Ingram's career falling short of expectations around draft status.

Of course, Ingram didn't create those expectations, which I always thought were a bit unrealistic. We signed him and we have to use him however we can. I think most of us knew he wouldn't be a Faulk, or Lynch, but many people thought he could contribute to this offense. I think he has, but he's never been used as a bellcow and he's always had to share the load with the Ivorys and PTs.

At 11 attempts per game, he'll very rarely get to run on a dog-tired defense at the end of games where he can increase his YPC significantly. He's not fast enough to outrun the defense when they're fresh. He did have a 70 yard TD run last season, but I'm not remembering whether that was early or late in the game. in 2 of the last 3 seasons his YPC was over 4.5, which isn't too shabby.

There's a place for Ingram, and I think Payton will have a plan for him. We will see.

Remember, in 2015 he only had 166 carries, but he also caught 50 passes, so he was pretty versatile and he also was always good at picking up blitz assignments.

 

[kcirdor]

576 carries, 2181 yards, 3.76 yards per carry, 11 TD.

Can you provide the source of this data? I used armchairquarterback.com back when they allowed you to download historical data for free. But now they charge 50 for historical.

 

[DaveXA]

576 carries, 2181 yards, 3.76 yards per carry, 11 TD.

That's what Ingram has done with his carries when games were 2 scores or less at the time of his carries.

In case anyone is wondering, that's less than any Saints RB during Ingram's tenure the entire time he's been in New Orleans. Dead last.

That's a false equivalency. You're comparing a narrow range of carries against any other RB without those parameters. Compare apples to apples or don't make the comparison.

If those are apples to apples comparisons, I'd like to see where you got the numbers you're stating. I'm looking at his season stats and he's never averaged less than 3.9 yard per carry. His last 3 seasons were 4.9, 4.3 and 4.6. His career average is 4.3. From 2011 to 2015 he lost 2 fumbles.

I'm not saying Ingram is great, but he's a good back who can block, catch and run and is a good fit for the type of offense we run. I think your tweaking of statistics is not a fair gauge of Ingram's overall performance. No one will be a 20 carries per game back, not even Fournette, if Payton continues to call games the way he always has. It's an unconventional offense which makes it hard to judge the value/performance of backs.

I'm all for letting Hightower get the bulk of the carries if his performance warrants it. Just keep in mind, he had 26 carries for 102 yards for a 3.9 average, which, interestingly enough, is Ingram's worst season average. I'm not knocking Hightower at all. Seattle is tough for anyone to run one, as evidenced by getting stuffed when trying to run the goal line offense.

I'm just saying a lot of people are overreacting to the fumbles, which are a legitimate issue, but a statistical anomaly when considering his overall body of work. His calling card has been his versatility, football security and pass protection. These are the things that make him valuable and difficult to replace. We've seen what happens when we put a back in who doesn't know what he's doing and end up nearly getting Brees killed back there.

When it comes down to it though, I'm ultimately in Payton's corner with however he decides to use Ingram. I suspect we'll see more running by committee. Time will tell.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

This argument is longer than any Ingram run while in a Saints uniform