Ingram benched [OLD THREAD BUMPED]

[DaveXA]

This argument is longer than any Ingram run while in a Saints uniform

So, you're saying it's more than 70 yards. Should I print it out and measure it?

 

[HayBear]

He's probably a better 3rd down back then he is a 1st down back because he's a pretty good receiver.

Disagree. He doesn't outrun anyone and lacks the "elusiveness" of a Bush or Sproles. Add, his first few years he was practically invisible as a receiver.

 

[DaveXA]

Disagree. He doesn't outrun anyone and lacks the "elusiveness" of a Bush or Sproles. Add, his few years he was practically invisible as a receiver.

2015...50 catches (4th on the team)...405 yards...8.1 avg is hardly invisible.

 

[bclemms]

That's a false equivalency. You're comparing a narrow range of carries against any other RB without those parameters. Compare apples to apples or don't make the comparison.

If those are apples to apples comparisons, I'd like to see where you got the numbers you're stating. I'm looking at his season stats and he's never averaged less than 3.9 yard per carry. His last 3 seasons were 4.9, 4.3 and 4.6. His career average is 4.3. From 2011 to 2015 he lost 2 fumbles.

I'm not saying Ingram is great, but he's a good back who can block, catch and run and is a good fit for the type of offense we run. I think your tweaking of statistics is not a fair gauge of Ingram's overall performance. No one will be a 20 carries per game back, not even Fournette, if Payton continues to call games the way he always has. It's an unconventional offense which makes it hard to judge the value/performance of backs.

I'm all for letting Hightower get the bulk of the carries if his performance warrants it. Just keep in mind, he had 26 carries for 102 yards for a 3.9 average, which, interestingly enough, is Ingram's worst season average. I'm not knocking Hightower at all. Seattle is tough for anyone to run one, as evidenced by getting stuffed when trying to run the goal line offense.

I'm just saying a lot of people are overreacting to the fumbles, which are a legitimate issue, but a statistical anomaly when considering his overall body of work. His calling card has been his versatility, football security and pass protection. These are the things that make him valuable and difficult to replace. We've seen what happens when we put a back in who doesn't know what he's doing and end up nearly getting Brees killed back there.

When it comes down to it though, I'm ultimately in Payton's corner with however he decides to use Ingram. I suspect we'll see more running by committee. Time will tell.

Here is the link and a screenshot with it even highlighted. That's about 2/3 of Ingram's career carries, the ones that aren't meaningless and not exactly what I'd call a narrow range and I was comparing apples to apples, all under the same exact split. You pull 3 career games from Mark Ingram and the remaining body of work is terrible.

Mark Ingram Career Splits | Pro-Football-Reference.com

 

[bclemms]

2015...50 catches (4th on the team)...405 yards...8.1 avg is hardly invisible.

Don't forget that was helped by a 59 yard career long reception when the Cardinals literally forgot to cover him. He wasn't touched for the first 55 yards, had only one player to beat in the open field with Brandon Coleman throwing an excellent block and still got tackled.

He's a career 6.8 yard per catch guy with 2 games in his career with more than 50 receiving yards.

 

[JBofWDN]

Here is the link and a screenshot with it even highlighted. That's about 2/3 of Ingram's career carries, the ones that aren't meaningless and not exactly what I'd call a narrow range and I was comparing apples to apples, all under the same exact split. You pull 3 career games from Mark Ingram and the remaining body of work is terrible.

Mark Ingram Career Splits | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Obligatory "Why you gotta bring facts uppin here"

As bad as it is, someone will be in shortly to somehow defend it.

 

[kcirdor]

Here is the link and a screenshot with it even highlighted.

You are missing the rest of your statement, where is the rest of your data? Khriy Robinson's numbers are practically the same(this really diminishes your point since Khiry is the primary comparison). Ivory's are a little better during his time with the Saints, and Pierre of course is the best. These were all back up roles playing fresh after Ingram. It's amazing Payton would choose to start the "worst" running back don't you think?

Show me this comparison in games that Ingram missed, with the same olines, gonna be difficult to tie that in anyway due to the smaller sample, but comparing relief carries with starter carries means very little due to the samples having their own special requirements.

no one has come along and taken his job just yet. We are still waiting for someone to supplant him as the starter. And if that does ever happen, he should remain on this team and finish his career here. Because even at 4 million dollars he will be contributing far more than people like CJ Spiller. Oh yea, Where is that home run hitter? Out of the league.

Compared to Khiry. Try again.

 

[stevo3]

I think Ingram is a good player, he's a great blocker in Pass Pro and any play in the playbook can be run with him in the game, buuuuuuuut........

The guy lacks vision and has ABSOLUTELY NO BURST!!! He is just no threat when he hits the hole and gets to the second level, which would be ok if he had great vision and always got 5-7 yds when he touched the ball, but unfortunately he gets bottled up at the line more often than not.

I think there is a place for him in the rotation if he can hold onto the ball, but he should definitely not be getting the lion's share of the carries. It doesn't bode well for him that Lasco, a much cheaper option, has a similar or better skillset and is a phenomenal blocker as a rookie.

 

[blackadder]

I think Ingram is a good player, he's a great blocker in Pass Pro and any play in the playbook can be run with him in the game, buuuuuuuut........

The guy lacks vision and has ABSOLUTELY NO BURST!!! He is just no threat when he hits the hole and gets to the second level, which would be ok if he had great vision and always got 5-7 yds when he touched the ball, but unfortunately he gets bottled up at the line more often than not.

I think there is a place for him in the rotation if he can hold onto the ball, but he should definitely not be getting the lion's share of the carries. It doesn't bode well for him that Lasco, a much cheaper option, has a similar or better skillset and is a phenomenal blocker as a rookie.

Definitely time to start rotating Lasco in more and more situations. Ingram is in his 6th season. He has well reached his plateau and we need more spark in the run game.

Let's hope the coach is concerned more with results and W's than managing Ingram's confidence and starts the transition. It'll be interesting because they've always gone out of their way to keep Ingram as the #1 back and pay him not an insignificant salary through 2017.

 

[SoggyBottomBoy]

You are missing the rest of your statement, where is the rest of your data? Khriy Robinson's numbers are practically the same(this really diminishes your point since Khiry is the primary comparison). Ivory's are a little better during his time with the Saints, and Pierre of course is the best. These were all back up roles playing fresh after Ingram. It's amazing Payton would choose to start the "worst" running back don't you think?

Show me this comparison in games that Ingram missed, with the same olines, gonna be difficult to tie that in anyway due to the smaller sample, but comparing relief carries with starter carries means very little due to the samples having their own special requirements.

We all agree Ingram isn't one of the best running backs in the league, but no one has come along and taken his job just yet. We are still waiting for someone to supplant him as the starter. And if that does ever happen, he should remain on this team and finish his career here. Because even at 4 million dollars he will be contributing far more than people like CJ Spiller. Oh yea, Where is that home run hitter? Out of the league.

Compared to Khiry. Try again.

Just an FYI. Spiller very recently signed with the Jets. Jets to sign RB C.J. Spiller, release Knile Davis - NFL.com

 

[kcirdor]

Just an FYI. Spiller very recently signed with the Jets. Jets to sign RB C.J. Spiller, release Knile Davis - NFL.com

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

So, you're saying it's more than 70 yards. Should I print it out and measure it?

Seriously Bro... It dates back to his rookie year. He's the most discussed RB on this forum in the SP era.


It started the moment he ran into the back of his 1st blocker.



5 years later were still debating his vision and still seeing him run into the backs of blockers.


IDK man....I'm over it. Dudes under contract 2 more years. I think he's usesful. I think we've made enough excuses for him ( i was big on this early) I like him and I think he's got positives that kind of balance off some of the things he can't do but he has no overwhelming trait and he is what he is at this point.


Put the shades on and deal with it.

 

[blackadder]

Seriously Bro... It dates back to his rookie year. He's the most discussed RB on this forum in the SP era.


It started the moment he ran into the back of his 1st blocker.



5 years later were still debating his vision and still seeing him run into the backs of blockers.


IDK man....I'm over it. Dudes under contract 2 more years.


Put the shades on and deal with it.

His first game was season opener against Green Bay in 2011 and Payton put the game in his hands on the final play from the 1 yard line for a potential tying score with time running out.

He got stuffed, time expired, Saints lose.

That's was the lingering memory from his first action, and from there he stayed pretty mediocre. He also had some injuries that slowed him in '11 and '12 but he did seem to make progress in 2013 but seems to have reached the ceiling.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

I actually agree with Bonchie in a sense that I've seen him function fairly well split out as a WR. He creates separation out of breaks and has some good shimmie to him in his releases. Even in TC there were reports of LB's being unable to cover him and he'd win on a lot of those routes.

Perhaps splitting him out wide at times with Hightower/Lasco in is a wrinkle we should look into.