Israel (now broader Mid East discussion) (14 Viewers)

[not2rich]

I guess the "innocent's die in war" slogan that's going around is what rubs me wrong. No one was saying that a year ago when Russia was bombing civilians. It was appalling then.....as it should also be now. Doesn't matter who the civilians are or for what reasons.... civilians should never be an acceptable casualty of war.

Israel's military operations can be criticized for being too indiscriminate, but they are a retaliation in response to an attack on their citizens. Russia doesn't have that excuse.

 

[DaveXA]

I guess the "innocent's die in war" slogan that's going around is what rubs me wrong. No one was saying that a year ago when Russia was bombing civilians. It was appalling then.....as it should also be now. Doesn't matter who the civilians are or for what reasons.... civilians should never be an acceptable casualty of war.

Every. War. Ever. Has included some civilians innocently killed. And actually it does matter. It's always appalling. War itself is appalling. When you have a group deliberately using human shields to try and redirect fire, stuff will happen that you don't want.

I don't want civilians to die and I think Israel is going about it wrong, but they have a right to defend themselves, and I think they need to slow their roll. But this campaign is simply not genocide. And actually you're wrong about no one was saying that in the Russia Ukraine war. Some certainly were. I think what turned the tide for some people were the rape and torture and killing of hundreds of Ukranians in small towns which were well documented and you had outside investigation into what happened. That's not the case yet in Gaza.

 

[DaveXA]

I mean yea, but the consequence of Israel using a nuke would probably be much worse than anything Hamas could ever do.

I don't think Israel is intending to commit genocide, but even if they were, they would have to try and do it in a way that didn't make them as much of a paraiah as North Korea.

The US would totally abandon Israel if they nuked Gaza.

Indeed. They don't need to nuke Gaza to turn it into a parking lot though. They have plenty enough bombs to carpet bomb the entire area if they wanted to, but the US and rest of the world wouldn't stand by that either.

I do think they have done an awful lot of bombing though and they do need to slow it down, complete their ground campaign to eliminate Hamas and then leave and let Gaza rebuild.

War sucks, but presuming to say Israel can't defend themselves after what we did post 9/11 strikes me as hypocritical.

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

Indeed. They don't need to nuke Gaza to turn it into a parking lot though. They have plenty enough bombs to carpet bomb the entire area if they wanted to, but the US and rest of the world wouldn't stand by that either.

I do think they have done an awful lot of bombing though and they do need to slow it down, complete their ground campaign to eliminate Hamas and then leave and let Gaza rebuild.

War sucks, but presuming to say Israel can't defend themselves after what we did post 9/11 strikes me as hypocritical.

I will never care about being hypocritical. I smoke, i tell my son not to. The fact that I smoke, doesn't make that bad advice.

Us telling Israel to slow down, comes from a position of experience. They should listen.

Especially since we give them a few billion dollars each year.

 

[DaveXA]

I don't think there's a deliberate attempt at exaggeration. Feel free to educate me.

We aren't going to agree, but this conflict hasn't met the definition of genocide. You'll need to be specific as to how it meets that definition because I'm not seeing it.

Once again, a dangerous view IMO. Mass civilian killings of a mistreated ethnic group under the fog of 'war'.

I don't know how you define that, but we already know most Palestinians have evacuated from northern Gaza. Civilians should have already left the area by now. They understand the risks they're taking by staying. While it's incumbent on Israel should avoid civilaian casualties to the extent possible, it's inevitable some targets whether intentional or not is going to result in casualties. I don't think Israel is intentionally targeting civilians, but I do think if they find Hamas operatives in a particular building, they're probably going to hit it if there are bystanders near the targets.

Is it closer than you think?
UN - Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

I don't agree with that, but ok.

I don't believe that, no. And considering what's been occurring for decades, why would Palestinians?

Then why did they leave Gaza completely in 2005? I don't see why Israel would want anything to do with Gaza.

 

[bclemms]

Correct... Nor do I.... and absolutely the US would... But Genocidal maniacs do not care about such repercussions. Or at least all the one's I remember from history didn't. So let's stop calling it what it ain't, and let's starting seeing it for what it is.

Genocides are often easier to excuse in real time. Ask Israel.

The Nazi’s didn’t just kill 6 million Jews on Monday. It took years. They relocated and repressed all right for them first.

6 Underground, a movie with Ryan Reynolds about overthrowing an evil dictator bombing Refugee camps comes to mind with what israel did today.

They literally threw down a half dozen JDAMS on a refugee camp. Israel claims they killed a few terrorists. I do not see how that makes it ok. Also really surprised the people of Israel arent getting upset about these actions.

 

[DaveXA]

I will never care about being hypocritical. I smoke, i tell my son not to. The fact that I smoke, doesn't make that bad advice.

Ok, seems presumptuous to me. I suppose Israel won't care what we think regardless. I don't want Israel to make the mistakes we did, but we responded to 9/11 over multiple decades. It's been less than 30 days for Israel.

Us telling Israel to slow down, comes from a position of experience. They should listen.

Agreed. I hope they do listen.

Especially since we give them a few billion dollars each year.

Certainly. But they don't need us to bribe them into listening. They could listen because it's the right thing.

 

[Heathen Saint]

Yes it's absolutely inaccurate.

By what metric? Consider Bibi's reference to Palestine being metaphorical Amalek a few days ago if any of the response includes "they have no intention of destroying Gaza"

 

[DaveXA]

Genocides are often easier to excuse in real time. Ask Israel.

Certainly.

The Nazi’s didn’t just kill 6 million Jews on Monday. It took years. They relocated and repressed all right for them first.

Certainly. Israel is less than a month into this war.

6 Underground, a movie with Ryan Reynolds about overthrowing an evil dictator bombing Refugee camps comes to mind with what israel did today.

They literally threw down a half dozen JDAMS on a refugee camp. Israel claims they killed a few terrorists. I do not see how that makes it ok.

Yeah, I'm not saying that makes it ok. Lets keep in mind the hospital incident turned out to most likely be an accident that resulted in fewer deaths than reported. We aren't privy to exactly how many casualties there were and whether the reports are accurate in this current case.

Also really surprised the people of Israel arent getting upset about these actions.

You'd be surprised. There have been several protests and continue to be in Israel. There are a lot of Israelis who oppose how Bibi is prosecuting this war.

 

[DaveXA]

By what metric? Consider Bibi's reference to Palestine being metaphorical Amalek a few days ago if any of the response includes "they have no intention of destroying Gaza"

I saw that, and I was disturbed by that to say the least. But there's a lot of bluster and rhetoric by him and by those who would support Hamas.

But again, what we're seeing isn't genocide, by definition. Some of their tactics are certainly questionable, sure.

 

[Infoman]

3 as there is also an information war where social media shapes peoples opinions on who to support. Western govts are at a huge disadvantage being unable to control the narrative anywhere near as well as Authoritarian regimes.

If we don't wise up to that pretty fast, they'll be successfully rip us into sides and continue to convert our system to one they prefer while we bicker and argue about who killed who.

Agreed

 

[Infoman]

Genocides are often easier to excuse in real time. Ask Israel.

The Nazi’s didn’t just kill 6 million Jews on Monday. It took years. They relocated and repressed all right for them first.

6 Underground, a movie with Ryan Reynolds about overthrowing an evil dictator bombing Refugee camps comes to mind with what israel did today.

They literally threw down a half dozen JDAMS on a refugee camp. Israel claims they killed a few terrorists. I do not see how that makes it ok. Also really surprised the people of Israel arent getting upset about these actions.

I never said I’m ok with everything Israel is doing and how they are handling every situation. I’m not. My opinions are mostly in line with Dave’s.

Israel could wipe Gaza off the map tomorrow. They have that capability and no matter which weapon they use… It would be genocide by definition. That’s not happening.

Again I’m sure Israel would love for Hamas to come out to the desert and away from civilians so they could fight them without the innocent loss of life. Until that happens, and it won’t, the innocent loss of life is on the cowardly terrorist arse hats hiding among the population and making this a reality.

Until either of those facts change. That’s where I am.

 

[0rion]

Israel's military operations can be criticized for being too indiscriminate, but they are a retaliation in response to an attack on their citizens. Russia doesn't have that excuse.

I saw a guy on ABC News carrying a dead child in a sheet. Justify that.

 

[BigFrosty]

Israel advances heavily with the southern movement.

 

[not2rich]

I saw a guy on ABC News carrying a dead child in a sheet. Justify that.

I'm not trying to justify anything. You compared Israel's actions to Russia's, and I simply highlighted a distinction between the two situations. Your response doesn't address my point at all.