Israel (now broader Mid East discussion) (5 Viewers)

[Heathen Saint]

Can you specify which genocide the US is funding?

That word seems to have lost its original meaning unless there is something else going on I'm missing.

The one going on as we speak in Gaza at the hands of the IDF:

Genocide is cited as "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."

Are the bolded portions inaccurate as to what is occurring?

 

[bclemms]

The one going on as we speak in Gaza at the hands of the IDF:

Genocide is cited as "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."

Are the bolded portions inaccurate as to what is occurring?

Another taking place in Ukraine and it will not be until Americans understand this is the same war that we will stand together.

Still doesn’t excuse the genocide taking place in Gaza. That region is a briar patch but killing kids is not the right route.

 

[Heathen Saint]

I don't agree with what Bibi is doing, but to call it genocide is to misuse the term. Let's not exaggerate here.

I don't think there's a deliberate attempt at exaggeration. Feel free to educate me.

This is war and in wars innocent people die. That doesn't make it genocide.

Once again, a dangerous view IMO. Mass civilian killings of a mistreated ethnic group under the fog of 'war'.

Now could it become genocide?

Is it closer than you think?
UN - Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with
intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as
such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its
physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Possibly, but it's not at that point, and I don't think it will. Israel, whether you believe them or not, has already stated unequivocally that they have no interest in Gaza, and expect Palestinians from Gaza to return after they eliminate Hamas. That's not genocide.

I don't believe that, no. And considering what's been occurring for decades, why would Palestinians?

 

[0rion]

I don't agree with what Bibi is doing, but to call it genocide is to misuse the term. Let's not exaggerate here. This is war and in wars innocent people die. That doesn't make it genocide.

Now could it become genocide? Possibly, but it's not at that point, and I don't think it will. Israel, whether you believe them or not, has already stated unequivocally that they have no interest in Gaza, and expect Palestinians from Gaza to return after they eliminate Hamas. That's not genocide.

I guess the "innocent's die in war" slogan that's going around is what rubs me wrong. No one was saying that a year ago when Russia was bombing civilians. It was appalling then.....as it should also be now. Doesn't matter who the civilians are or for what reasons.... civilians should never be an acceptable casualty of war.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

The one going on as we speak in Gaza at the hands of the IDF:

Genocide is cited as "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."

Are the bolded portions inaccurate as to what is occurring?

Yes.

But I doubt we will agree and I laid out my thoughts above, so I'll leave it alone.

 

[Tapxe]

I guess the "innocent's die in war" slogan that's going around is what rubs me wrong. No one was saying that a year ago when Russia was bombing civilians. It was appalling then.....as it should also be now. Doesn't matter who the civilians are or for what reasons.... civilians should never be an acceptable casualty of war.

I agree with the sentiment, but that's a bit incomplete as the enemy uses civilians as shields and none of the countries espousing support are stepping up with refugee efforts.

 

[Heathen Saint]

Yes.

But I doubt we will agree and I laid out my thoughts above, so I'll leave it alone.

Your comment earlier

It's not the wholesale destruction of an ethnic or religious group.

I'm wondering who here has argued this.

That was the point of referencing the UN's 1948 Article II in which 'in whole or in part' was referenced.

That's fine though - agree to disagree.

 

[Infoman]

Sparkle's point is pretty clear... If Israel wanted genocide for Palestine... or to deliberately kill of a large number of people from Palestine that are not terrorists with the aim of destroying that nation." They could have done so many times before this attack, and after... They have nukes, and one of the best trained Armies in the world. This is not genocide. It's a tragic byproduct of this particular war because of the way these terrorists want to fight it.

And as Tapxe said... your options to limit civilian casualties and collateral damage.... while waging a war to eliminate a terrorist organization in the defense of atrocities they commit... are limited when they use civilians as human shields, dig tunnels under civilian infrastructure, and hide amongst them to test your resolve... Then on top of that none of the countries espousing support are helping with refugee efforts.

This war is being fought in 2 dimensions... The actual one where you have to kill terrorists... and the other one where terrorists hide behind innocent people to garner sympathy for the collateral damage they created by their own actions on the world stage.

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

Sparkle's point is pretty clear... If Israel wanted genocide for Palestine... or to deliberately kill of a large number of people from Palestine that are not terrorists with the aim of destroying that nation." They could have done so many times before this attack, and after... They have nukes, and one of the best trained Armies in the world. This is not genocide. It's a tragic byproduct of this particular war because of the way these terrorists want to fight it.

And as Tapxe said... your options to limit civilian casualties and collateral damage.... while waging a war to eliminate a terrorist organization in the defense of atrocities they commit... are limited when they use civilians as human shields, dig tunnels under civilian infrastructure, and hide amongst them to test your resolve... Then on top of that none of the countries espousing support are helping with refugee efforts.

This war is being fought in 2 dimensions... The actual one where you have to kill terrorists... and the other one where terrorists hide behind innocent people to garner sympathy for the collateral damage they created by their actions on the world stage.

I mean yea, but the consequence of Israel using a nuke would probably be much worse than anything Hamas could ever do.

I don't think Israel is intending to commit genocide, but even if they were, they would have to try and do it in a way that didn't make them as much of a paraiah as North Korea.

The US would totally abandon Israel if they nuked Gaza.

 

[Infoman]

I mean yea, but the consequence of Israel using a nuke would probably be much worse than anything Hamas could ever do.

I don't think Israel is intending to commit genocide, but even if they were, they would have to try and do it in a way that didn't make them as much of a paraiah as North Korea.

The US would totally abandon Israel if they nuked Gaza.

Correct... Nor do I.... and absolutely the US would... But Genocidal maniacs do not care about such repercussions. Or at least all the one's I remember from history didn't. So let's stop calling it what it ain't, and let's starting seeing it for what it is.

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

Correct... Nor do I.... and absolutely the US would... But Genocidal maniacs do not care about such repercussions. Or at least all the one's I remember from history didn't.

Sure, maniacs wouldn't care. Most of the times in history the people committing the genocide, try to hide the fact that they are committing genocide. The holocaust was a pretty well kept secret for most of WWII.

Again, i just want to make it clear for context, that i am not accusing Israel of genocide, this is a side conversation.

 

[Infoman]

Right... I am sure if Hamas told the IDF... Hey, let's go out in the desert away from all these civilians and settle this muzzle to muzzle... Israel would gladly abide them... but that's not how terrorists win... they win with fear, carnage, and sympathy from the infinitely out of touch.

 

[Tapxe]

2 dimensions

3 as there is also an information war where social media shapes peoples opinions on who to support. Western govts are at a huge disadvantage being unable to control the narrative anywhere near as well as Authoritarian regimes.

If we don't wise up to that pretty fast, they'll be successfully rip us into sides and continue to convert our system to one they prefer while we bicker and argue about who killed who.

 

[DaveXA]

The one going on as we speak in Gaza at the hands of the IDF:

Genocide is cited as "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."

Are the bolded portions inaccurate as to what is occurring?

Yes it's absolutely inaccurate.

 

[not2rich]

The one going on as we speak in Gaza at the hands of the IDF:

Genocide is cited as "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."

Are the bolded portions inaccurate as to what is occurring?

I guess it's accurate if you believe Israel's aim is to destroy everyone in Gaza, or all Palestinians. That's an important part of the definition: "...with the aim of destroying that nation or group."

The definition isn't simply "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group." By that definition, every major participant in WWII committed genocide against other nations.