Jake Haener (5 Viewers)

[DavidM]

I appreciate you sharing the article again. I still hold the same opinions on Haener, maybe even more so than before, after reading the article.

- He mentions arm length as a detriment to ball speed. With an arm length of 29.75”, Haener’s arms are more than an inch shorter than QB’s identified as having the shortest arms in that draft class. His ceiling is set lower by default.
- Haener has a slower release than what people think, he has to wind up his throws. He also has a slower trigger speed than what gets claimed, but I’ll give him a pass on that as he learns the playbook and gets opportunities with better skill players.
- On a slower release/slower ball speed, the author mentions .05 seconds being significant enough to be late. Haener was .31 seconds late at my best estimate on the throw I looked at, he’s going to get picked if he can’t speed up. I mentioned in another post he probably can’t because he needs to step into his throw to drive the ball. Easy to do in 7-on-7, not so easy with the pocket collapsing around you.

Here are two clips I captured that show Carr vs Haener on release for a similar distance throw, Carr let’s it loose on his reset where Haener has to load up, costing him around .12-.15 seconds just on the release. His trigger speed was also very slow on this play, but again I’m not going to beat him up about it just yet.

Edit: had the videos on a different device, here they are:

Glad you had a chance to read it and weigh in with your thoughts.

Haener's arm length (29.75) is consistent with his overall smaller size, and as I said, I think it's his size that works the most against him (though it certainly doesn't mean he can't be successful, as we know.) For perspective, his arm is longer than Kyler Murray's (28.5) and less than an inch shorter than Bryce Young (30.5); all three of them being smaller quarterbacks.

Haener's measured velocity (57 MPH) from the combine (source Ourlads) puts him near the top of his class. (You can scroll through to see QBs from other recent drafts.)

Dix has Josh Allen at 63, Ourlads has him at 62
Dix has Burrow at 56, Ourlads has NA

I really don't think Haener is going to have problems with velocity but I don't doubt there is room to improve with his mechanics. I'd expect his decision-making time and trigger time to improve with reps, but I thought he looked pretty composed for the most part in his first NFL action.

Via Ourlads:

Ourlads’ Guide to the NFL Draft is the only source that gives the number for the quarterback’s velocity at the NFL Combine. Velocity is measured by a radar gun in miles per hour.

Year: 2023​

Stetson Bennett Georgia 58 (Left) 55 (Right)

Jake Haener Fresno State 56 (Left) 57 (Right)

Tyson Bagent Shepherd 56 (Left) 53 (Right)

Tanner McKee Stanford 55 (Left) 58 (Right)

Dorian Thompson-Robinson UCLA 55 (Left) 58 (Right)

CJ Stroud Ohio State 54 (Left) 56 (Right)

Clayton Tune Houston 53 (Left) 58 (Right)

Anthony Richardson Florida 53 (Left) 54 (Right)

Will Levis Kentucky 53 (Left) 53 (Right)

Jaren Hall BYU 52 (Left) 57 (Right)

Max Duggan TCU 52 (Left) 53 (Right)

Aidan O'Connell Purdue 49 (Left) 49 (Right)

Malik Cunningham Louisville 48 (Left) 51 (Right)

Hendon Hooker Tennessee - did not throw

Bryce Young Alabama - did not throw

 

[Big_L]

We’re all just sick of your little group coming in and trying to create issues. I thought @Andrus made it clear in another thread about doing this type of stuff? Can we not focus on Haener and what he did this past game without your thinly veiled attempt to make this about something and someone (you know who) else?

Nobody is creating issues. It highlights how some of your little group are.

 

[TribuneUK]

I would like to see Winston get some more time with starting O Linemen so he can execute a few sustained drives and build that confidence.

Agreed. I was concerned with those sacks he took and the opportunity to show he can stay clean with a better pocket around him would provide some reassurance.

 

[jahsoul357]

Agreed. I was concerned with those sacks he took and the opportunity to show he can stay clean with a better pocket around him would provide some reassurance.

That is what let me know that 2nd and 3rd string O-line might be a problem. We had the advantage in terms of blockers for each one of those sacks. I hope we get to see all 3 behind mostly 1st/2nd string and I'm praying that all of them can stay healthy throughout the season.

 

[TribuneUK]

That is what let me know that 2nd and 3rd string O-line might be a problem. We had the advantage in terms of blockers for each one of those sacks. I hope we get to see all 3 behind mostly 1st/2nd string and I'm praying that all of them can stay healthy throughout the season.

Yeah, I saw you made a comment that attributed his sacks to the OL on the field. Hopefully we get to see them with a quality group and all get a clean read of their real abilities.

 

[Rouxble]

I think it’s clear a mistake was made, it was an interception after all. I just can’t believe you’re still ragging on it like the kid didn’t play a whole second half, and lead a game tieing/winning drive (had the Center not screwed up on the convert)

Once guys started actually catching his passes the kid looked good and he threw the ball well.

I agree a mistake was made, others believed that the throw was good, hence the debate.

I’ve made several positive comments about Haener in the thread, including that he would probably perform better with better OL and skill players around him, so I don’t know how that counts as ragging on him.

 

[Rouxble]

Glad you had a chance to read it and weigh in with your thoughts.

Haener's arm length (29.75) is consistent with his overall smaller size, and as I said, I think it's his size that works the most against him (though it certainly doesn't mean he can't be successful, as we know.) For perspective, his arm is longer than Kyler Murray's (28.5) and less than an inch shorter than Bryce Young (30.5); all three of them being smaller quarterbacks.

Haener's measured velocity (57 MPH) from the combine (source Ourlads) puts him near the top of his class. (You can scroll through to see QBs from other recent drafts.)

Dix has Josh Allen at 63, Ourlads has him at 62
Dix has Burrow at 56, Ourlads has NA

I really don't think Haener is going to have problems with velocity but I don't doubt there is room to improve with his mechanics. I'd expect his decision-making time and trigger time to improve with reps, but I thought he looked pretty composed for the most part in his first NFL action.

Via Ourlads:

Ourlads’ Guide to the NFL Draft is the only source that gives the number for the quarterback’s velocity at the NFL Combine. Velocity is measured by a radar gun in miles per hour.

Year: 2023​

Stetson Bennett Georgia 58 (Left) 55 (Right)

Jake Haener Fresno State 56 (Left) 57 (Right)

Tyson Bagent Shepherd 56 (Left) 53 (Right)

Tanner McKee Stanford 55 (Left) 58 (Right)

Dorian Thompson-Robinson UCLA 55 (Left) 58 (Right)

CJ Stroud Ohio State 54 (Left) 56 (Right)

Clayton Tune Houston 53 (Left) 58 (Right)

Anthony Richardson Florida 53 (Left) 54 (Right)

Will Levis Kentucky 53 (Left) 53 (Right)

Jaren Hall BYU 52 (Left) 57 (Right)

Max Duggan TCU 52 (Left) 53 (Right)

Aidan O'Connell Purdue 49 (Left) 49 (Right)

Malik Cunningham Louisville 48 (Left) 51 (Right)

Hendon Hooker Tennessee - did not throw

Bryce Young Alabama - did not throw

I saw those numbers, and they certainly seem suspect when I’ve seen quite a few reports that lost him as below average arm strength. I’ve estimated the average speed of some of his longer throws in the high 40’s, where Carr was in the low 50’s.

Just as a matter of physics, he should be able to launch the ball further than Anthony Richardson with that speed, and nobody here thinks that is true.

 

[DavidM]

I saw those numbers, and they certainly seem suspect when I’ve seen quite a few reports that lost him as below average arm strength. I’ve estimated the average speed of some of his longer throws in the high 40’s, where Carr was in the low 50’s.

Just as a matter of physics, he should be able to launch the ball further than Anthony Richardson with that speed, and nobody here thinks that is true.

Reviews of his arm strength run the gamut but from what I've seen, the consensus is that it's average to above average. One report called it "intriguing" because he "flashes good velocity" but then they still questioned his arm strength. From what I've pieced together, there's the opinion that he loses a lot when he's not throwing from a set base.

 

[DavidM]

Interesting as all the analysis is, I haven't seen anything that makes me think he's destined to wash out based on arm talent, alone. I think it's good enough to give him a shot to make it in the NFL. I'll watch with interest and see how he progresses.

 

[jahsoul357]

Yeah, I saw you made a comment that attributed his sacks to the OL on the field. Hopefully we get to see them with a quality group and all get a clean read of their real abilities.

In all honestly, I was thinking he should have tried to get rid of he ball but when I looked again, I saw that the O-line had the numbers against rushers and it looked like he was reading the side opposite of the blitz/rush first, came back around and then boom. Still should have gotten rid of the ball and that's no beuno in the regular season at the times he took them. But I also think the issue wouldn't have been there with the starting O-line.

 

[Rouxble]

Reviews of his arm strength run the gamut but from what I've seen, the consensus is that it's average to above average. One report called it "intriguing" because he "flashes good velocity" but then they still questioned his arm strength. From what I've pieced together, there's the opinion that he loses a lot when he's not throwing from a set base.

That last sentence is key, and I think its what NFL scouts are really looking at when they talk about arm strength. Can the QB still sling it when they don’t have a perfect throwing base? I think anyone getting drafted can likely put some heat on it with their best form.

Carr can, in my view, throw it significantly further and faster than Haener without needing that extra step in the windup, and without that perfect base. The same goes for peak Brees, he could let it rip at a faster speed than some remember without having to load up. His throwing motion is probably my favorite among NFL QB’s, but of course I’m biased.

Worth considering also, that two QB’s may be able to achieve the same speeds, but the one throwing with less effort will probably be more accurate because they aren’t having to use all their strength to push the ball.

 

[Rouxble]

Interesting as all the analysis is, I haven't seen anything that makes me think he's destined to wash out based on arm talent, alone. I think it's good enough to give him a shot to make it in the NFL. I'll watch with interest and see how he progresses.

I hope he gets some opportunities with a better supporting cast, and that he spends some time on the offseason shortening that overall throwing motion. I think that little hitch step will give safeties that extra step to make a play on the ball.

Even if his arm strength is an issue, we still had a pretty good offense in the late 2010’s without needing to sling fastballs all over the field. The WCO originated with a coach who needed to find a way to get success from a QB with a limited arm, and that offense has had a pretty good track record.

 

[Judge_Smails]

Reviews of his arm strength run the gamut but from what I've seen, the consensus is that it's average to above average. One report called it "intriguing" because he "flashes good velocity" but then they still questioned his arm strength. From what I've pieced together, there's the opinion that he loses a lot when he's not throwing from a set base.

One thing about arm strength is that it is negated by having to step into and launch certain throws, which gives DBs more time to read where the ball is going and break on it sooner.

Haener does have to wind up like that from what I’ve seen in a very small sample, but getting quicker with his reads and having a specialist work on him with mechanics can certainly help.

 

[Brandon13]

My take would be that his arm talent is good enough if he's strong in some other areas, which he appears to be.

I think he has to wind up more than someone like Carr to achieve his velocity, but I think that may be able to be worked out to some degree with an example of someone like Brady who came in without a great arm but who managed to perfect his throwing motion to a point where he certainly ended up with an above average NFL arm.

 

[DSnfla]

Hard to see the miscommunication, that throw never should have been made. No route adjustment built into that play call is stopping the DB from undercutting the route.

The WR probably didn’t expect the ball because he had the DB sitting right on top of him, he’s basically running a clear out route at that point.

There is a route adjustment. #12 was sidestepping backwards from the snap and continued too. Since he gave a cushion and then still went backwards the route adjustment should have been to cut the route short and drift outside. It was 2nd and about 16 no need to pick up the 1st on that play. Now I'll say that it was not the greatest throw , he had to get it over #31's reach, it could have been lower and to the outside more ( Back-shoulder throw)