Peyton Manning says teams fail young QBs when forcing them to change coaches, systems (4 Viewers)

[DSnfla]

Yet, every QB that we all consider the "best" in terms of the position fall in line with what Manning is saying. I get what you are saying about what a coach does but this also ties into why QBs can't do the things that you describe. Mastery of the system allows you to be able, from the QB position, to diagnose so many different things that you are stating that coaches should be doing (which I do agree with). Like @Rouxble stated, Peyton Manning had the same OC his entire time in Indy because Tony Dungy was smart enough to know that the consistency in the system matters. He then brought that system to Denver. Drew Brees mastered the system that CSP put in for him. Tom Brady butted heads with Bruce Arians because he couldn't effectively run that system. What did he do? Brought in the New England system and the very next year, nothing about that offense said Bruce Arians. Probably why he stopped coaching..lol.

All of these systems aren't helpful to QBs but the thing is, these coaches think less about actual QB development because turnover at QB is just as bad as turnover at HC. QBs are no longer allowed to fail and succeed. We care more about instant success than development. That's why we are looking for "modern offenses" which actually caps what a QB does in the system, simplifies reads, and is more reliant on skill players (that's why we always talk about how 'elite" QBs needs weapons instead of making the talent around them better).

But even with all of this said, I get exactly what you are saying.

LOL I knew this would bring out of the woodwork. Of course it's better for a young QB to be in 1 system for 5-8 yrs 1 OC . But Dungy's NFL is not today's NFL . Unless the HC is a offensive HC calling plays and is not going anywhere it does not happen because GMs are looking for the next bright young OC to be a HC. It was easy for Dungy to keep Tom Moore all those yrs . In today's NFL Moore would have been a HC after 2-3 yrs as the Colts OC

It's not like one offensive system is spoken in English and a different system is spoken in Japanese. There are a lot of similarities. It's not like the QB is asked to lean to speak Dolphin . But in any system the longer you have the same thing going on the easier it is to master, IF and I did say IF the QB is capable of it

With the emergence of QBs like Mahomes , Allen , Jackson and Daniels that have that off scrip element which system they run is somewhat diminished

One thing for sure is that the Shanny/McVay system is the easiest on a QB especially a young QB and seems to get more production out of a less than elite QB

 

[SigFreudianSlip]

I don't have a problem with this but the people on this board and the casual Saint fan would go crazy. You saw what kind of crazy came out after we lost 2 games in a row. Imagine going into the season knowing what it is, and the losing start again. This season became stale, long, and boring once the losses piled up. But with Arch Manning possibly being drafted by the Saints, new HC, new GM, and with a little cap space we might be okay to tank 2025.

Arch won’t be allowed to play here. Archie and his uncles will guide him elsewhere.

2025 will be a tank job whether intentionally or not.

 

[DSnfla]

The latest, best example of a team going all in on developing a QB after his 1st year was Titans w/ Will Levis. They fired Vrabel and pretty much wiped out the staff. He ended up regressing under the new staff after showing promise.



Rattler's circumstances within context were probably a lot worse than Levis Rookie year but overall his QBR was 6.0 points higher. I'm not saying build around him, but I am saying he's proved he's worth developing. Focusing on said development should encompass keeping the same offensive staff together (or keeping Jonoko at the least).

Watch Levis in his next stop get with a QB whisperer and blossom into a good NFL QB

 

[DSnfla]

I don’t think there’s anything really special about Kubiak’s offense unless you compare it to Carmichael’s which was a disaster. If Kubiak isn’t here next season, we will still use a lot of motion, play-action, and misdirection because that’s what all offenses are doing now.

I like Kubiak and want to keep him as QC but it's the whole offensive staff I want to keep. KK and staff had the O overachieving in the 1st 2 games , no matter who it was we were playing scoring 40+ pts on any team is not easy.
He and the staff took what most thought was a far below avg OL and had then running the ball with dominance and giving DC plenty of time to throw to an avg WR corps and a avg TE

We could keep a simular system with another OC but I don't think any offensive coaching staff would know the wide zone system as well as the staff we have now

 

[DSnfla]

Perhaps not special but he showed a level of creativity that Pete seemed reticent to display. He does need to improve w/ second half adjustments and yet, how much adjusting can you do when you gave them everything you had in the 1st half because you had to? #2 QB, #3 RB, #4 and #5 WR, #3 TE. Eventually a good defense is going to figure out what you're doing schematically and the players just have to make plays.

Hard to do that when you're playing w/ decreated talent.

ABSOFREAKINGLUTY

 

[DSnfla]

So to ask a different question, albeit a very important one, which HC candidate do you feel has the best chance a filling a great staff of coaches?

That's easy , McCarthy . He's done it before with Quinn and Zimmer . I think he might bring an fresh OC just to have some new ideas but he is calling plays

 

[Saint KayBee]

Curious exactly what you expected Rattler to do without an oline or wide receivers or Taysom Hill? The problem wasn’t Rattler, it was no surrounding cast to help him. I see him differently, I see a Rookie that did not look like young with Carolina his first two years. While his stats were not outstanding they were not abysmal! Is he worth building a team around? We will not know that for a few years.

If the next HC likes Rattler enough to want to build the team around his strengths then I wouldn’t be opposed to it. “Will not know that for a few years” is going to leave an acrid scent in this fanbase’s face, though. These folks want to get right back to winning right now. They don’t just think it’s possible, they flat-out expect it. The patience this demands is going to dive out of a fire escape quickly if the 2025 Saints start out slowly, even if it’s in the name of development.

 

[jahsoul357]

LOL I knew this would bring out of the woodwork. Of course it's better for a young QB to be in 1 system for 5-8 yrs 1 OC . But Dungy's NFL is not today's NFL . Unless the HC is a offensive HC calling plays and is not going anywhere it does not happen because GMs are looking for the next bright young OC to be a HC. It was easy for Dungy to keep Tom Moore all those yrs . In today's NFL Moore would have been a HC after 2-3 yrs as the Colts OC

I can agree with this 100%. This is why we have better coordinators than actual quarterbacks and why we look for athletes than can throw. What you described coincides with the decline of actual quarterbacking in the NFL (along with the lack of development in college).

It's not like one offensive system is spoken in English and a different system is spoken in Japanese. There are a lot of similarities. It's not like the QB is asked to lean to speak Dolphin . But in any system the longer you have the same thing going on the easier it is to master, IF and I did say IF the QB is capable of it

Different QBs have different skillsets which does not fit every offense and this doesn't translate across the board. Not to mention the fact that we never take into account what these QBs are required to do in each system. Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen being asked to play in a pure progression, traditional pocket passing offense would be ugly..lol. Fit matters and always have...

With the emergence of QBs like Mahomes , Allen , Jackson and Daniels that have that off scrip element which system they run is somewhat diminished

What if I told you that a lot of the "off script" element comes from these quarterbacks missing reads all over the field..lol. The irony of this is....

One thing for sure is that the Shanny/McVay system is the easiest on a QB especially a young QB and seems to get more production out of a less than elite QB

the offenses that Mahomes, Allen, Jackson, and Daniels run could be said to be the easiest....

 

[TribuneUK]

LOL I knew this would bring out of the woodwork.

Of course, it's all about making those homer excuses. He's been running all over defending his boy.

 

[St. Geezy]

I want the young man to succeed, I really do, but I think we are putting too much faith in Spencer Rattler.

I wouldn’t do anything head coaching move related with Rattler’s development in mind.

If he surprises and takes a huge leap in the next year or two…great! But he’s no one to be shifting organizational decisions around at this stage. He just didn’t show that level of ability or potential to me.

Desperation for a good young QB makes people overlook a lot, and I think that’s the case here. I like him as a prospect, but I’m not willing to cater my entire program’s direction around his development.

 

[St4ever]

I want the young man to succeed, I really do, but I think we are putting too much faith in Spencer Rattler.

I wouldn’t do anything head coaching move related with Rattler’s development in mind.

If he surprises and takes a huge leap in the next year or two…great! But he’s no one to be shifting organizational decisions around at this stage. He just didn’t show that level of ability or potential to me.

Desperation for a good young QB makes people overlook a lot, and I think that’s the case here. I like him as a prospect, but I’m not willing to cater my entire program’s direction around his development.

Then how about you look at it from this point of view. We are most like;y going to have to groom a young QB to run this team in the next three years, either from on contract or through the draft. How about we look at a person that capable of understanding the young guys and teaching them how to play great?

 

[St. Geezy]

Then how about you look at it from this point of view. We are most like;y going to have to groom a young QB to run this team in the next three years, either from on contract or through the draft. How about we look at a person that capable of understanding the young guys and teaching them how to play great?

Agreed! And I think McCarthy is who I want to do that.

My only point is that we shouldn’t potentially compromise our program’s direction if we feel there are better candidates out there than what we have in-house just because we have a barely average at best 5th round QB prospect we want to cater to in the name of continuity.

If Rattler is the guy, he needs to adjust to whoever we bring in and show it.

 

[TribuneUK]

Then how about you look at it from this point of view. We are most like;y going to have to groom a young QB to run this team in the next three years, either from on contract or through the draft. How about we look at a person that capable of understanding the young guys and teaching them how to play great?

To be fair, any coach that isn't in the business of understanding young (all) players and teaching them how to play (great or otherwise) probably isn't coaching in the NFL in the first place.

A lot of fan talk on coaching topics is very polarised into coaches that are great and everyone else being some kind of bum. In truth these are some of the best in the world at coaching. I appreciate the natural desire to contrast and compare the options out there, but the margins are much smaller than that. Seek 'the best' options, for sure, but don't unnecessarily denigrate 'the rest' in the process.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

I want the young man to succeed, I really do, but I think we are putting too much faith in Spencer Rattler.

I wouldn’t do anything head coaching move related with Rattler’s development in mind.

If he surprises and takes a huge leap in the next year or two…great! But he’s no one to be shifting organizational decisions around at this stage. He just didn’t show that level of ability or potential to me.

Desperation for a good young QB makes people overlook a lot, and I think that’s the case here. I like him as a prospect, but I’m not willing to cater my entire program’s direction around his development.

IMHO it’s not about faith in Rattler it’s just seeing what you have. No different than the Titans did w/ Levis or the Redskins did w/ Sam Howell.

Give him a year as the starter, see what you have. If it’s good move forward, if it’s not reset.

By the start of 2026 70% of the players that were on the field at the end of 2024 won’t be on the team.

 

[sfidc3]

IMHO it’s not about faith in Rattler it’s just seeing what you have. No different than the Titans did w/ Levis or the Redskins did w/ Sam Howell.

Give him a year as the starter, see what you have. If it’s good move forward, if it’s not reset.

By the start of 2026 70% of the players that were on the field at the end of 2024 won’t be on the team.

Don't disagree, but it will depend on the new HC's (I'd be shocked and disappointed if they hired Rizzi, TBH) evaluation of him.....IMO it's really difficult to fairly analyze his play due to the circumstances, which were near impossible for a rookie, right now there are more questions than answers with him....we will see what happens....

I