Retread Head Coaches (4 Viewers)

[3ParStillDriver]

You described a QB Coach and OC. What has he shown to be a HC and lead and entire team?

Impossible question to answer as it inherently attempts to rule out any first time head coaches and most NFL head coaches entirely and would natively steer the conversation into an entirely unrelated subject. What did Sean Payton show to lead an entire team before his first time? Sean McVay? Kevin O'Connell? Every head coach in the NFL for that matter before their first head coaching job? Did they have to show a successful head coaching job at the college level? Why didn't Nick Saben, arguably the greatest college football coach in history, completely suck in the NFL?

 

[SuperSaint]

see my post above on this page for the comparison.

Thanks!

 

[IceHot]

And none of them won a ring with a different team than their original Super Bowl team.

You cant be serious...very few coaches have ever won 2 Superbowls or even been to 2 Superbowls.

Ewbank won Championships with Both the Jets and the Colts. He won twice with the Colts

Conzelman also won Championships with both Providence and the Cardinals (although he did play with providence as well in 28)
Shula was with Colts before Miami, played in the Superbowl with Baltimore (68).
Vermeil went to the Super Bowl with the Eagles and the Rams
Reid was first with the Eagles (in the superbowl)
Dungy won with the Colts but built the Bucs
Fox went to the Superbowl with 2 different organizations
Belichick was first a Browns Coach
Allen was originally with the Rams

Im not a big fan of McCarthy but even Reeves took two different organizations to the Superbowl

 

[IceHot]

I think its also worth noting here that the way the Divisional Championships worked in 1967...
Don Shula actually got screwed out of a Playoff Appearance with the Baltimore Colts despite having the best record in the entire NFL.

Had there been Wild Cards back then he easily could have his name on the Lombardi instead of Vince.

 

[No2DC]

You cant be serious...very few coaches have ever won 2 Superbowls or even been to 2 Superbowls.

Ewbank won Championships with Both the Jets and the Colts. He won twice with the Colts

Conzelman also won Championships with both Providence and the Cardinals (although he did play with providence as well in 28)
Shula was with Colts before Miami, played in the Superbowl with Baltimore (68).
Vermeil went to the Super Bowl with the Eagles and the Rams
Reid was first with the Eagles (in the superbowl)
Dungy won with Colts but built the the Bucs
Fox went to the Superbowl with 2 different organizations
Belichick was first a Browns Coach
Allen was originally with the Rams

Im not a big fan of McCarthy but even Reeves took two different organizations to the Superbowl

I gotta admit I'm not familiar with Ewbank. Reeves never won a ring. Close don't count, ask the 90s bills

 

[IceHot]

I gotta admit I'm not familiar with Ewbank. Reeves never won a ring. Close don't count, ask the 90s bills

Weeb was the Coach of the Jets when Namath played for them...

The interesting thing is first he was the Coach of the Colts...Built a Championship Organization with Unitas...won the NFL Championships in 58 and 59...He was the Coach that won "The Greatest Game Ever Played"

When he left for the Jets, Shula took over as the Colts Coach and continued the Championship tradition getting to the Super Bowl in 68.

The Irony comes in that Weeb beat his successor in that Superbowl.

Shula goes to the Dolphins in 70, but that's the year that McCafferty takes over as the Colts HC.

McCafferty then wins the Superbowl in the same year with the Colts in probably one of the most poorly played Supebowls ever.

In 71 Shula returns to the Superbowl with the Dolphins but loses to Landry and the Cowgirls.

Then Shula posts up two back-to-back NFL Championships - 72 (the perfect season) and 73 (which some say was the better team).

 

[IceHot]

Only 14 coaches have won 2 or more Super Bowls...(2 more than the number of men who have set foot on the moon)...

5 of them were retreads before winning a Super Bowl
3 of them were Cowboys coaches at one point in their career
1 of them was a Green Bay Coach
9 were never College Head Coaches
1 was the Head Coach of Cornell*
1 coached for the Air Force*
2 of them coached for the Raiders (that didnt work out for us did it)
1 of them coached in Pittsburgh (McCarthy was a WR coach at Pitt)

13 of the 14 have either an (M, C, A, R, T, H, or Y) in their name (first or last)
1 of them has the first name Mike
3 of them have the first name Tom (so that would be more ideal)

*stats thrown in there to keep you on your toes

 

[No2DC]

But their teams were vastly improved compared to their coaching predecessor, which I thought was all about, hiring a better coach who has a track record winning.

Yes, Parcells had a reputation as kind of the clean guy after leaving the Giants and Jets. He could stabilize a drowning franchise. Is that what we are seeking currently? Did he make the Cowboys better or basically peak like Garett?

 

[DSnfla]

With these answers, keep in mind my eyes are on Super Bowls and Championship games. Making the playoffs is fun, but... I want to be one of the last 4 teams standing as consistently as possible.

What makes Brady special to me? - I recognize that franchise QB's are essential for repeat runs deep into the playoffs. In fact, if you look at the teams most likely to repeatedly making Championship appearances, the two things they have in common is a great head coach and a franchise QB. Brady, has a knack for QB's having their best year under him going back to college years. Even in Carolina, Bridgewater was having a career year. Theres one single season that didn't work well and that was with Sam Darnold, who mind you, also just cost the Vikings with his awful play with Kevin O'Connell at the helm and we know how good Kevin O'Connell is.

Burrow credits his growth to Brady. Bridgwater has a career year under him. Darnold tanks and was forced by Matt Rhule, and Brady then elevates Josh Allen to MVP and Allen very clearly wants to keep him in Buffalo. On top of that, no matter what defense Brady's offenses are up against, he finds ways for his offense to put up points. Usually a lot.

This gives reason to the idea that if Brady is head coach, at worst we will be similar to the 08 Saints. Putting up points but can't play defense. Given his success of elevating QB's, it also gives reason that he stands a decent shot at helping the franchise find a franchise QB, and grooming him even if Brady doesn't work out as HC. The next one in theory will have a franchise QB to open up our potential searches for coaches. Is that a risk to not work out? Absolutely. But a franchise QB is worth it imo. If Brady could not find us a top 10 QB, whether its by grooming Rattler or drafting or free agency (hopefully someone under 30), then that to me would be a bust. I like the odds though. And let me very clear about this. I don't believe for 1 minute that Mahomes would be Mahoming the way Mahomes does Mahomes if he had gone to the Raiders, or Browns or Patriots. Reid and Kelce had really, really, really big influences on his growth.

Having a guy who's never coached before tends to come with a big drive. So when I see a coach who has elevated offenses greatly wherever hes been and now wants a head coaching job, the odds seem in favor of success of at least being highly competitive. Throwing in the NFL becoming offensive driven more so then defense and franchise QB's becoming necessary, it all begins to add up.

Now, my question of wanting a new first time head coach over a guy who's won a SuperBowl. No. The NFL changes drastically, usually around every 5-7 years. The game keeps evolving. For that reason, I like to look back the past 5-7 years. McCarthy has not won a superbowl in around 15 years. That's double the lifespan of evolution in the NFL. So to me, I immediately throw out everything going back that far. The most impressive times for someone like McCarthy was around 2010. After 2014, Green Bay started as a struggling team, especially in post-seasons. Now some people want to blame that on Rodgers. But we saw it in Dallas also. 1-3 in post-seasons.

Another point, who can work with average to below average QB's? that question was somewhat answered with Joe Brady when Teddy Bridgewater was QB for Carolina and having a career year. The Panthers offense put up 350 pts. But Carolina finished 5-11, because the defense allowed 402. So we know Brady can work with average to below average QB's. Can McCarthy? Well. Going back 10 years. McCarthy also has an unknown. All of his successes have occurred with a top 10 QB. The moment that went away, so did his offense. He struggled entirely. Look at Cooper Rush. The injury to Prescott couldn't be helped and is unfortunate. If that hadn't happened, its very possible MM wouldn't even be a candidate and a deal would've gotten worked out. But he couldn't make Cooper Rush relevant. Brady made Bridgewater relevant. And soon, whether its this year or the next or even the one after that, our selected coach is either going to need to make Rattler relevant or find someone else. We can even go back to 2017 when Rodgers missed half the season. Hundley super struggled and McCarthy had loads of troubles getting the offense to work with Hundley. So maybe McCarthy isn't an unknown when it comes to not having top 10 QBs.

I know people love to compare Payton and McCarthy. And someone will say "But Payton didn't win a superbowl even longer, would you turn him down?" and the answer is no. Because in 2020 Payton still made the playoffs with Brees injured, then in 2021 nearly got us to the playoffs with a 9-8 record playing QB carousel which is impressive. Then he just took the leagues ranked least talented NFL team and made the playoffs with a rookie QB. The two, despite what many say looking at career wins and losses, are not remote close to the same.

There are currently 4 teams who need head coaches. We're the only ones considering McCarthy, while Brady is now supposedly being pursued by the Jags after Coen resigning with Tampa. Why is that? If McCarthy is so proven don't you think at least 4 out of the 7 teams who needed a head coach would look to him? Only none did except Saints and Bears. What do the two have in common? Their last head coaching decisions were absolutely atrocious. So ya, I'm basically saying I don't trust Loomis in this process. I find it extremely unlikely that anyone thinking Dennis Allen as a head coach was a good idea most assuredly wouldn't make the similair mistake again.

All of this makes Brady the obvious choice for me. And that's not even getting into when front office officials for Green Bay criticized what his play calling and game planning has turned into which only raises my concern for MM. And Dallas had a pretty stacked team in terms of talent. In fact you could argue that the only position we were better in was RB because of Kamara vs Rico.

Bridgewater had better yrs in 2015 in Min and better in Den in 21. You think because he threw for more yrd in Car it was better? Yds are the least accurate way to judge a QB. TD to INT ratio and QBR are the best and his QBR was better in Min and his TD ratio was better in Den

 

[DSnfla]

HOT TAKE! I'm not sure if any of you have heard this, but no coach has won a Super Bowl for two different teams!

Does this have any relevance to anything? Probably nothing more than an interesting bit of trivia, but I bet a whole bunch of theories can be weaved from it. Enjoy.

Yes that anomaly stat really means nothing. But quite a few SB winning HC
have made it back to the SB

 

[DSnfla]

Weeb was the Coach of the Jets when Namath played for them...

The interesting thing is first he was the Coach of the Colts...Built a Championship Organization with Unitas...won the NFL Championships in 58 and 59...He was the Coach that won "The Greatest Game Ever Played"

When he left for the Jets, Shula took over as the Colts Coach and continued the Championship tradition getting to the Super Bowl in 68.

The Irony comes in that Weeb beat his successor in that Superbowl.

Shula goes to the Dolphins in 70, but that's the year that McCafferty takes over as the Colts HC.

McCafferty then wins the Superbowl in the same year with the Colts in probably one of the most poorly played Supebowls ever.

In 71 Shula returns to the Superbowl with the Dolphins but loses to Landry and the Cowgirls.

Then Shula posts up two back-to-back NFL Championships - 72 (the perfect season) and 73 (which some say was the better team).

Yep Weeb is the only HC to win championships with 2 different teams in two different leagues, the NFL and the AFL. I know because I was friends with Weeb's niece. Unless you want to sound Paul Brown he won titles with the Browns in the AAFC in the 40's and the NFL in the 50's

 

[St. Geezy]

But their teams were vastly improved compared to their coaching predecessor, which I thought was all about, hiring a better coach who has a track record winning.

In some fans’ minds, if you aren’t winning a SB, you aren’t worth the trouble.

They don’t grasp the concept of how hard it is to win the SB and how valuable it is to find yourself a guy that can consistently get you merely in position to win one.

Only 20 different teams and 35 different coaches have won Super Bowls…it’s extremely hard, and it’s an exercise predicated on consistent winning and a lot of luck.

That’s the GOAL…consistently being in position to win one and to take advantage of said luck. To actually win one is the DREAM.

The Patriots and Chiefs are unicorns, and even they have had to rely on a ton of luck, but once again, the key for them was and is consistently being in position to take advantage of the luck…ball bounces, blown ref calls, missed chip shot field goals, overtime coin tosses, etc.

 

[St. Geezy]

HOT TAKE! I'm not sure if any of you have heard this, but no coach has won a Super Bowl for two different teams!

Does this have any relevance to anything? Probably nothing more than an interesting bit of trivia, but I bet a whole bunch of theories can be weaved from it. Enjoy.

It doesn’t. It’s a product of the fact that it is hard for EVERYONE to win a SB.

Only 6% of the coaches who have ever coached have won one. Only 20 of the 32 franchises have won one. Only 35 individual head coaches have won one.

It is very hard to do and something that isn’t just solely predicated on coaching skill level.

So now we are judging coaches because they had the audacity to not be able to duplicate this success and luck twice with two different teams, much less factoring in that only a relatively extremely small handful even were merely in position to do so?

The fact that so many of these retread SB winners even got back to the Super Bowl or at a minimal had the bad teams they took over playing extremely well and contending is enough for me. It tells me that (obviously) SB coaches have great programs/organizational skills, and those great programs/organizational skills usually translate well across different teams, so they present a really good bet.

 

[Snakehead]

There are 4 teams playing this weekend and 2 teams have retread HCs, the Chiefs and the Commanders.

 

[3ParStillDriver]

There are 4 teams playing this weekend and 2 teams have retread HCs, the Chiefs and the Commanders.

Right but who are they?

Andy Reid, who notoriously ran a superbowl contender for over a decade in Philidelphia. Who then went to Kansas City and got a better QB, and we see the results. You can try to debate that he's improved, but the simple truth is that he just landed a generational talent at QB vs in Philadelphia he only had a good QB. He was a superbowl contender in Philly, now he's a superbowl contender in Kansas City but winning them with a much better QB.

Dan Quinn, who turned Atlanta into a superbowl contender. Has now put together a superbowl contender in Washington. Only now, he has what so far appears to also be a generational talent on QB. Its reasonable to believe that as long as JD5 does not regress, its only a matter of time before Washington walks away from a season with a ring.

Let's go a step further.

Dennis Allen, who was one of the worst coaches in history with the Raiders, coached New Orleans and was still one of the worst coaches in history.

There's quite literally a plethora of other examples were a retread coach continues to succeed, or fail as they did in their previous position. Sean Payton is another example, Tony Dungy, John Gruden, the list quite literally goes on and on.

On the flip side of that, what about coaches who have pulled a complete 180 to some degree?

Most know about Bellichek, and there's a few others. But very few coaches fail early to succeed later in a 2nd chance. Then you have the coaches who pulled a 180 in the other way, who were successful but came flops and never bounced back. They're not very numerous either.

It tends to be that whatever retread coach you get, they are very likely to continue to be who they were in the prior head coaching position, and the only difference leading to more or less success is the players, particularly the QB position.

Therefore, it seems to reason that retread coaches are not bad at all if they have a history of superbowl contending. They are more likely to still be a superbowl contending head coach then not. Leaving the question of, does your franchise already have a superior QB talent, or do you believe that coach can find one. Because if not, they likely may not be as successful as they would've been, but still somewhat successful.