Saints restructure Ramczyk to vet minimum per Jason Fitzgerald of Over The Cap (2 Viewers)

[St. Widge]

I don't find so much fault in them because it boils down to a missed evaluation on Carr.

For instance, lets say their assessment of Carr is right. Lets say he ends up navigaing Carmichael/Paytons system w/ Gusto. 4000 yards and 30 TD's in year one and we make the playoffs. That restructure that they know is going to take place in a year does, but nobody cares because we're winning. They got it wrong on Carr and getting it wrong shines a very bright flashlight.

And I think the Carr deal too goes back to failures in the draft. They had chances to draft QBs like Jackson, Love, Hurts, and even Mahomes if Payton had kept his mouth shut but either they made bad evaluations or chose to take other positions because they were thinking too short term in the draft.

You make mistakes like Carr when you don't have a good young player on your roster to step up when an aging vet retires or gets too old to live up to his contract. And you end up having to game the cap to sign that guy because you don't have any other options. That's true at every position including QB. It's also the reason we signed Chase Young to a deal with 4 void years. We had nothing at DE other than a solid Granderson due to Cam's age and missing on Foskey, Davenport, and Turner. So, we had to spend future money and add void years in order to sign Young to a contract.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

And I think the Carr deal too goes back to failures in the draft. They had chances to draft QBs like Jackson, Love, Hurts, and even Mahomes if Payton had kept his mouth shut but either they made bad evaluations or chose to take other positions because they were thinking too short term in the draft.

You make mistakes like Carr when you don't have a good young player on your roster to step up when an aging vet retires or gets too old to live up to his contract. That's true at every position including QB.

That is a fair assessment, alot of that is on DA. Loomis tends to be a hands-off GM, people who keep saying things like "Loomis isn't good in FB operations he needs a coach like Payton who can identify talent" forget that Loomis had to hire Ireland because something about evaluations had gone amiss under Payton's thumb.

There's no excuse for letting someone like Baun walk. You evaluated him properly, waited in the draft to get him, and then the HC sours on him and demotes him to Sam LB. Meanwhile the guy he likes, Werner, who seems to have impressed him, gets a 2nd contract for what many here would describe as solid play. A lot of those misses are on Allen because plenty of times he said the final decision always was w/ him.

Conversely Mac McDonald recently said "id like Geno back, but the final decision isn't a my decision its an us/organizational decision" Loomis doesn't run things like that. DA brought in his kind of guys, kept his guys, and the players that weren't...they left over the years and we're seeing it now.

 

[Elvis]

I don't find so much fault in them because it boils down to a missed evaluation on Carr.

For instance, lets say their assessment of Carr is right. Lets say he ends up navigaing Carmichael/Paytons system w/ Gusto. 4000 yards and 30 TD's in year one and we make the playoffs. That restructure that they know is going to take place in a year does, but nobody cares because we're winning. They got it wrong on Carr and getting it wrong shines a very bright flashlight.

I hear you, but Loomis is responsible for both the money and the talent. It comes with the job of GM. He's the final word. If he shifts the talent evaluatiosn to a coach, that's still on him. Carr had no history of ever being a franchise QB and they paid him like one when the only other team being tied to him was the Jets using him as leverage to get a deal done for Rodgers. He could have said no because there was too much risk to that signing but he gave DA what he wanted. And we can't keep using the same hypothetical situations where everything works out to excuse bad drafting, bad free agent signings and bad cap management. Only one of those things can be 100% without the potential for failure and that's the cap management.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

I hear you, but Loomis is responsible for both the money and the talent. It comes with the job of GM. He's the final word. If he shifts the talent evaluatiosn to a coach, that's still on him. Carr had no history of ever being a franchise QB and they paid him like one when the only other team being tied to him was the Jets using him as leverage to get a deal done for Rodgers. He could have said no because there was too much risk to that signing but he gave DA what he wanted. And we can't keep using the same hypothetical situations where everything works out to excuse bad drafting, bad free agent signings and bad cap management. Only one of those things can be 100% without the potential for failure and that's the cap management.

Aha, but Loomis isn't the final word. He wasn't when Payton was HC, he wasn't when DA was HC. That's not his style, he isn't a meddlesome GM, he's always allowed his coaches to have final word, while he supports them.

 

[Elvis]

Aha, but Loomis isn't the final word. He wasn't when Payton was HC, he wasn't when DA was HC. That's not his style, he isn't a meddlesome GM.

Just because he abdicated the final word and gave it away to the HC doesn't mean it wasn't his. That's just making excuses for the guy at the expense of guys who aren't hear anymore.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

Just because he abdicated the final word and gave it away to the HC doesn't mean it wasn't his. That's just making excuses for the guy at the expense of guys who aren't hear anymore.

labeling a fact an excuse so it supports you're argument is interesting, but I digress.
It's liek the injury thing this year....calling it an excuse is meh.

 

[St. Widge]

I hear you, but Loomis is responsible for both the money and the talent. It comes with the job of GM. He's the final word. If he shifts the talent evaluatiosn to a coach, that's still on him. Carr had no history of ever being a franchise QB and they paid him like one when the only other team being tied to him was the Jets using him as leverage to get a deal done for Rodgers. He could have said no because there was too much risk to that signing but he gave DA what he wanted. And we can't keep using the same hypothetical situations where everything works out to excuse bad drafting, bad free agent signings and bad cap management. Only one of those things can be 100% without the potential for failure and that's the cap management.

No doubt Loomis deserves the blame either way. But since he's not going anywhere right now, at least we know that if he ends up hiring the right coach that does evaluate players properly and does know how to build a roster Loomis will give him the roster he wants. Hopefully without adding void years and singing aging vets to big deals with void years. Of course, if he gets the hire wrong, he will also give the coach the roster he wants.

I'm not totally confident Loomis is going to get this rebuild totally right, but I do think he moved in the right direction last year by not maximizing the restructures and with the Lattimore trade. My main fear is that he's going to go YOLO again spending in free agency and trading up in the draft.

 

[Elvis]

labeling a fact an excuse so it supports you're argument is interesting, but I digress.
It's liek the injury thing this year....calling it an excuse is meh.

Are you saying that the responsibilities of the GM in New Orleans is different than in the other 31 NFL cities? Unless there is some evidence Dennis Lauscha handed Loomis's authority and responsibility for personnel and accounting to someone else entirely, it rests with him as the GM. It is fine for him to do so, but it doesn't remove his responsibility for that choice and he should be judged by that decision.

 

[stooge]

I still believe that is one of the bigger misconceptions about the Saints' strategy, the heavy use of future cap space didn't really start until 2021. From 2011-2020, we averaged about 8% of total cash being spent on restructuring bonuses. From 2021-2024, the average has been about 37% of cash spent. We've been more all-in post-Brees than we ever were with Brees.

This is likely due to having to do a ton of restructuring after Covid shrank the cap unexpectedly. We’re hopefully close to finally clawing out from that but it’s going to take another lean year or two.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

Are you saying that the responsibilities of the GM in New Orleans is different than in the other 31 NFL cities? Unless there is some evidence Dennis Lauscha handed Loomis's authority and responsibility for personnel and accounting to someone else entirely, it rests with him as the GM. It is fine for him to do so, but it doesn't remove his responsibility for that choice and he should be judged by that decision.

Yes, lol I even provided you an example. See below.

“I want Geno to be here,” Macdonald told reporters on Monday. “I think he’s a heck of a player. The first thing it always comes back to is what’s best for the team. I feel like Geno is the best for the team right now. I’ll be involved with it, ultimately it’s not my decision. It’s a Seahawks decision. But, Geno knows how we feel about him and we love him as our starting quarterback for sure.”

The decision ultimately will be made by G.M. John Schneider, who emerged with final say over the roster last year, following the departure of coach Pete Carroll.

Meanwhile DA and Payton on multiple occaisions confrimed that final decision fell with them, the HC.


You don't think Loomis is competent, we get it...but man some of your arguments as to why you think he's incompetent are easier than you realize to poke holes in. You'd do better by just saying, I think another GM would do a better job.

 

[St. Geezy]

It's not just cosmetic and it's not just data. It's structural and impacts what we see on the field. Today's news isn't news. Everyone knew that was going to happen last year when it was clear Ram wasn't playing again. The accountants just had to wait a year because of the mess they made.

You don’t believe we could have created more space to add more adequate depth if we wanted to (assuming that’s what you’re referring to)?

I think when the GM says we are going to go less aggressive with the restructures this (last) off-season and only do the bare minimum, that needs to be accounted for when evaluating the efficiency of the process that’s being critiqued.

 

[Stalwart385]

People take their anger out on the cap but the truth is that its been unforeseen injuries and player dropoffs that has did us in. Injuries will derail any team's plan every year no matter how green a cap looks.

Ramczyk great example.
Cam Jordan fell off the cliff at extension.
Mathieu to a bit of lesser extent.
Interior OL has had injury after injury over the past 3-4 years.

People can't focus their anger at bad luck so they find someone to focus it on. DA is gone, next up ML and Carr.

 

[St. Geezy]

People can't focus their anger at bad luck so they find someone to focus it on. DA is gone, next up ML and Carr.

A bad football team’s fans always need to have a mascot for the badness to throw stones at.

If ML was fired alongside DA at midseason, it would be Mrs. Benson catching the heat.

 

[SaintRob]

A bad football team’s fans always need to have a mascot for the badness to throw stones at.

If ML was fired alongside DA at midseason, it would be Mrs. Benson catching the heat.

I would think that if both of those happened, optimism would be at it's highest point since we won the Super Bowl.