There's no easy way out of this (1 Viewer)

[BoNcHiE]

Let me be clear I'm not advocating the below is the way to go. Frankly I haven't processed things enough in my head to figure out the "best" path forward if I was running things. Certainly it would be to shed salaries and accumulate draft picks as many of us believe in -- but as to the exact "how" well I'm not there yet.

But if you really, truly wanted to "start" next year and being to "blow it all up" and it's fairly straight-forward numbers wise (#s are rounded):

*Cut/Trade Kamara: Cap Savings of $19M
*Cut Ramczyk: $6M
*Cut Moreau: $2M
*Cut Saunders: $2M
*Cut JT Gray: $2M
...
*Cut Carr Post 6/1: $30M
*Cut/Trade Lattimore Post: 6/1: $18M

Those moves get you compliant for 2025 ($79M needed). Now, obviously you push about $46M with Carr and Lattimore into 2026. Not exactly ideal. But certainly doable, especially if you go with young picks and cheaper deals.

There's also some alternate variations of this. You keep Lattimore but designate Taysom as a Post June 1 cut and cut some other guys that are $1M each (Ridgeway, Wilson, etc).

Again, not advocating this...but showing how it can be done without restructures and using cuts/trades only.

Edit to add: I think you also have to let guys walk. Not many guys in the 2025 cycle will get much, but a few could garner mid-to-very low compensatory picks. Even with the injury, Adebo would probably be the guy to get you a possible 4th/5th round compensatory pick if anyone is willing to trust his health. I'd honestly prefer he walk than pay him, especially to get out of cap hell. Beyond that maybe Willie Gay gets something back and maybe someone overpays for a shot at a guy like Payton Turner or one of the backup OL that can stay healthy. But it's minimal.

Of course we know this isn't how it will go. Just spit-balling what could happen.

The problem is you can’t just cut low-cost guys and ring them up as savings. We have to have a roster and draft pick replacements still cost money.

If we cut Moreau, we will have to sign or draft another TE, and will they cost more than the $2m you save? Probably.

Same for Saunders as a DT or the other $1m guys you are citing.

 

[BoNcHiE]

You’re using the “assumption” that we would be yielding the same results as the Lions, had we had those same players. Thats not how that works. We can only go by what we do know and that is DC is getting the most out of his players, while we are riding a rudderless ship with our HC.
DC went from :
3-13
9-8
12-5 NFCCG appearance
5-1 currently

Not a fan of a Dan Campbell type because culture goes out the window after a few losing seasons, and there’s no guarantee we will jump to 9-8 that quickly because we have a much worse situation when it comes to resources (draft and cap space) to fix things.

I think we need a coach who can be a genius on one side of the ball and produce stability and team identity there. Preferably offense.

Dan Campbell reminds me of Mike Vrabel. It can work for a while, but it’s the road less travelled for a reason. You’re left having to find two top coordinators instead of just one.

 

[SweetT]

Not a fan of a Dan Campbell type because culture goes out the window after a few losing seasons, and there’s no guarantee we will jump to 9-8 that quickly because we have a much worse situation when it comes to resources (draft and cap space) to fix things.

I think we need a coach who can be a genius on one side of the ball and produce stability and team identity there. Preferably offense.

Dan Campbell reminds me of Mike Vrabel. It can work for a while, but it’s the road less travelled for a reason. You’re left having to find two top coordinators instead of just one.

I’m getting a lot of responses for Dan Campbell specifically. He’s not the one i suggested. I said we should get someone from his coaching tree. Here is my original response. Whatever they are doing, it is 100% working in this new age of football. Just someone who has had a bird’s eye view of that operation, who can mix the old with the new. Could you imagine what an offense would look like with KK as OC, but with some of Ben’s concepts?!?! I don’t care even if we were to take one of Ben’s assistants. Not for HC. Just a voice to have in the building.

 

[sfidc3]

Because Payton is busy coaching the football team and they needed Ireland to run the scouting department. Just because a you have people that work for you handling the details doesn't mean you aren't in charge.

Maybe Payton didn't have total control. I think he did based on the evidence, but even if I'm wrong and he didn't, he clearly had a lot of power to do what he wanted with the roster and with the draft.

And, I'm not really blaming Payton for the current situation. DA, Ireland, and Loomis have had 3 years to fix it and they haven't. So all three of them share the blame for the current situation. But Payton did leave this team in a bad situation so I am blaming him for the situation that existed when he left. But Loomis, Ireland, and DA have done a bad job of making that situation better.

Fair enough....I'll say this, the best way to get back on track (and it's not going to be easy) is to get the right coach and hit on the next 2 drafts....it will be an uphill climb especially because I have zero faith in Loomis's ability to find that right coach.....but we will see....

 

[St. Widge]

Don't really understand Underhill/Triplett pod. They brought up "if it gets embarrassing if they lose to Carolina and lose the next two" bro, did yall actually look around at the dome on primetime last thurs? The camera panned multiple times at how empty the dome was after half-time. Al Michaels and Herbstriet were checked out of the game by the 3rd quarter. They even lightly called that game a stinker when they said "We haven't had many of these this season."

What game were those two watching? That game was about as embarrassing as the covid game. At least with the covid game, it was out of your control that happened. This game happened without those external factors.

I'll never get the race to the bottom with this fanbase. If someone says it was a bad game they will be criticized for not saying it was a terrible game and if they say it was a terrible game, they will be criticized for not calling it a horrible game. And, if they call it a horrible game they will be criticized for not calling it a horrible season. Etc., etc., etc.

 

[St. Widge]

Fair enough....I'll say this, the best way to get back on track (and it's not going to be easy) is to get the right coach and hit on the next 2 drafts....it will be an uphill climb especially because I have zero faith in Loomis's ability to find that right coach.....but we will see....

I mostly agree with all of this , but I do have more confidence that Loomis can find the right coach because he found Payton. DA was a bad hire for the wrong reasons, but I have hope he will course correct next time because I think he is capable of change. He has to some extent changed how he is doing the cap (not enough yet but some) and has more or less avoided the big trade ups in the draft other than smaller moves. He seems more wiling to be patient and he apparently was even going to trade down with the Raiders if Brock Bowers was on the board. (This would have cause a certain towel to unravel.)

 

[RJ in Lafayette]

Absent an incredibly big contract and an acknowledgement by ownership and management that the team will show patience with a new coach, the Saints are going to be an attractive choice for the top head coach candidates. Sean Payton left because he thought the future looked tough. The future today looks bleaker than it did when Payton stopped down.

 

[St. Widge]

The future today looks bleaker than it did when Payton stopped down.

No it doesn't. When Payton left we had at best a low level staring QB in Winston with nobody behind him, no WRs, no QB to dream on, a cap in trouble, and mid-level draft picks. We are now 2 years from fixing the cap rather than 5 years from fixing the cap. We have two very good, if not great WRs, a couple QBs to dream on in Rattler and Haener, a solid QB in Carr, what appear to be two bookend Tackles that we can build around, and what is about to be a high round draft pick. Things are certainly no worse and may be better than they were when Payton left.

If for no other reason, the next head coach won't be directly following a legend with the GM saying that this is just a continuation of what Payton did.

 

[sfidc3]

I mostly agree with all of this , but I do have more confidence that Loomis can find the right coach because he found Payton. DA was a bad hire for the wrong reasons, but I have hope he will course correct next time because I think he is capable of change. He has to some extent changed how he is doing the cap (not enough yet but some) and has more or less avoided the big trade ups in the draft other than smaller moves. He seems more wiling to be patient and he apparently was even going to trade down with the Raiders if Brock Bowers was on the board. (This would have cause a certain towel to unravel.)

I wish I had your confidence in Loomis but all I can remember is that clown show end of season PC he did.....good they didn't trade down because I think we got a LT starter for years to come at one of the premium need positions....

 

[St. Widge]

I wish I had your confidence in Loomis but all I can remember is that clown show end of season PC he did.....good they didn't trade down because I think we got a LT starter for years to come at one of the premium need positions....

I do think the first round of the draft worked out right for the team and frankly, I think if Bowers had fallen it would have been a mistake not to take him.

Anyway, I guess I just see Loomis as a guy that isn't great when he is in the spotlight. Part of that is that he spent so many years with Payton and Brees as the face of the organization. But DA is never going to be that guy so Loomis has had to step into the role and he is not good at it. Still, I think he's a patient calming hand which has it's disadvantages since he tends to be slow to get rid of underperforming coaches, but it also means that people want to work for him because he doesn't just fire everyone the moment things go wrong.

Plus, numbers guy or not, he's been in an NFL front office or an NFL GM for almost 40 years so he probably knows more about football than most of us think he does. I mean he's had access to coaches, scouts, and players that most of us football obsessed fans only dream of. Some of that information has to have rubbed off on him. He doesn't always make the right decision, but he is willing to change even if it's not as quickly as we would like.

Whether that's because he is hard headed or patient may be a matter of semantics and if what he does turns out to be right in the end. When he gave Payton more time after 3 straight 7-9 seasons he was patient but giving Allen this much time seems to be hard headed.

 

[sfidc3]

I do think the first round of the draft worked out right for the team and frankly, I think if Bowers had fallen it would have been a mistake not to take him.

Anyway, I guess I just see Loomis as a guy that isn't great when he is in the spotlight. Part of that is that he spent so many years with Payton and Brees as the face of the organization. But DA is never going to be that guy so Loomis has had to step into the role and he is not good at it. Still, I think he's a patient calming hand which has it's disadvantages since he tends to be slow to get rid of underperforming coaches, but it also means that people want to work for him because he doesn't just fire everyone the moment things go wrong.

Plus, numbers guy or not, he's been in an NFL front office or an NFL GM for almost 40 years so he probably knows more about football than most of us think he does. I mean he's had access to coaches, scouts, and players that most of us football obsessed fans only dream of. Some of that information has to have rubbed off on him. He doesn't always make the right decision, but he is willing to change even if it's not as quickly as we would like.

Whether that's because he is hard headed or patient may be a matter of semantics and if what he does turns out to be right in the end. When he gave Payton more time after 3 straight 7-9 seasons he was patient but giving Allen this much time seems to be hard headed.

Regarding your last paragraph, big difference, CSP already had skins on the wall (NFC championship, SB win, multiple playoffs).....DA in 6 seasons still hasn't been able to take a team to the playoffs....DA hasn't earned anyone's patience at this point.....

Other than that, I think Loomis's job until recently has been almost purely financial, but like you I can only speculate.....I just hope by the beginning of next season we have a new coach and better direction going forward....

 

[Rouxble]

Regarding your last paragraph, big difference, CSP already had skins on the wall (NFC championship, SB win, multiple playoffs).....DA in 6 seasons still hasn't been able to take a team to the playoffs....DA hasn't earned anyone's patience at this point.....

Other than that, I think Loomis's job until recently has been almost purely financial, but like you I can only speculate.....I just hope by the beginning of next season we have a new coach and better direction going forward....

Besides the skins on the wall, Payton (an offensive head coach) continued to field one of the best offenses in the league during that stretch of 7-9 seasons, and he clearly had a synergistic relationship with our franchise QB. Firing Payton wouldn't have made much sense unless the offense started struggling or if Brees and Payton somehow fell into conflict. All we needed was a defense, and when we got one it opened another Super Bowl window.

I mention that since our defensive HC currently has the 19th ranked defense by DVOA, and that's with the benefit of two big games early in the season (they rank 22nd when recent games are weighted more heavily). The leaders he is most connected with are knocking on the door of retirement, and he hasn't shown an ability to generate nearly as much defensive success as their eventual replacements play more snaps. If your defensive head coach can't field a good defense, and also can't win games, it's probably time to move on.

FWIW, his defense has gotten worse with each departure of talent.

2021 - 2nd by DVOA
2022 - 9th by DVOA
2023 - 15th by DVOA
2024 - 19th by DVOA (22nd weighted)
2025 - ???

Compared to Payton on offense from 2014 - 2016 and beyond with Brees:

2014 - 7th by DVOA
2015 - 10th by DVOA
2016 - 6th by DVOA
2017 - 2020 - never worse than 7th by DVOA

Payton and Allen can't be compared.

 

[St. Widge]

Regarding your last paragraph, big difference, CSP already had skins on the wall (NFC championship, SB win, multiple playoffs).....DA in 6 seasons still hasn't been able to take a team to the playoffs....DA hasn't earned anyone's patience at this point.....

Other than that, I think Loomis's job until recently has been almost purely financial, but like you I can only speculate.....I just hope by the beginning of next season we have a new coach and better direction going forward....

I was being a bit tongue in cheek about the Payton/Allen thing. Obviously there were good reasons to keep Payton despite those 7-9 season and there is zero reason to keep DA at this point. I'm just saying Loomis' patience paid off with Payton because some GMs would have fired him after two 7-9 seasons much less three and his track record and how good his offense was would not have mattered. Especially as he was also fielding a terrible defense that he could not seem to hire the right guy to fix and refused to part with Joe Vitt for too long. Sound a bit familiar really except for the skins on the wall.

Anyway, if Loomis fails to fire DA this year, I will join those who think he is a major part of the problem and that he needs to go. I was willing to let him be patient for two years despite my desire to fire DA 2 years ago, but if he fails to do it this year, he has no excuse.

 

[Clintonrebel]

Why did I scroll through this thread looking for original thought?

 

[DSnfla]

If high draft picks and lots of cap space would guarantee success, then all of the teams that have had those before would have had success. Yet they have not. If what you say is factual, then teams would do it ten times over. They don’t though.

LOL did you read the part where I said halfway almost ???? And the Lions have a very good GM, OC and a good DC. Chicago is in the early stages of that same boat. High draft picks of their own and a windfall from a dumb team. But their coaching staff and GM are just meh.