There's no easy way out of this (2 Viewers)

[St4ever]

You can get a franchise QB without tanking. The success rate for first round QBs, even high pick 1st round QBs is very low. And just because you are competitive doesn't mean that you can't trade up higher to draft that franchise QB or that you can't find him later in the first or in later rounds. The list of first round bust QBs is very long and picking high by tanking doesn't gain you anything on average.

And while 8 or 9 win seasons may not be enough for hardcore fans, casual fans will buy tickets if the games are fun and they team stays competitive. And nobody is going to buy tickets if they aren't competitive. And if this franchise doesn't sell tickets and merchandise for more than a few years, it's going to move.

Tanking and tearing it apart is simply no guarantee that you are going to come back. Many teams that "tanked" never came back. Look at Cleveland. Look at the Jets. Look at Carolina.

And the truth is that this isn't the NBA and NFL teams don't tank for picks. If a team has a bad record it's because they have a bad team and they earned those losses. But it's not because they tried to have a bad team and even bad teams seldom "tank" until the last two games of the season. Even then, most NFL teams don't do it because there is at best a marginal gain for picking a few picks higher.

The "good" news is that with all the injuries this year and DA as head coach, the Saints likely won't need to tank for a higher draft pick. They are going to earn all those losses.

I agree with you and you have a better chance of making whoever you get a true franchise QB if you build great lines for him to play behind and give him some weapons to get the ball too. Either one of our young QB’s could be the one if they had a team to play with.

 

[St4ever]

So let’s just bring Billicheck in and let him take over!

 

[tinman]

Replace that last CSP with Mickey Loomis and then we agree......

And a HC having a ring is a whole lot different than a position coach.....god, what nonsense......also, CSP led the Saints to the playoffs 9 times in his 15 years here......DA led the Saints to the couch in January.....what utter nonsense....

Yep, I can see nonsense when it's plain. If you think that Loomis had more say in the Saints roster than Payton, well good luck.
You are assuming that I blame Payton for the current situation. That is NOT the case. He is certainly responsible for a chunk of the adversity & to completely disregard his involvement is disingenuous at best.

 

[sfidc3]

Yep, I can see nonsense when it's plain. If you think that Loomis had more say in the Saints roster than Payton, well good luck.
You are assuming that I blame Payton for the current situation. That is NOT the case. He is certainly responsible for a chunk of the adversity & to completely disregard his involvement is disingenuous at best.

What I'm saying is no one knows for sure, which is fact.....if CSP was the all know it, all be it, then why was Ireland hired in the 1st place?

I'm glad to hear you aren't blaming a HC 3 years gone because in reality, he's responsible for exactly zero regarding the Saints right now, but some folks need to find a scapegoat other than the obvious problems that start with Loomis....

 

[St. Widge]

What I'm saying is no one knows for sure, which is fact.....if CSP was the all know it, all be it, then why was Ireland hired in the 1st place?

I'm glad to hear you aren't blaming a HC 3 years gone because in reality, he's responsible for exactly zero regarding the Saints right now, but some folks need to find a scapegoat other than the obvious problems that start with Loomis....

Because Payton is busy coaching the football team and they needed Ireland to run the scouting department. Just because a you have people that work for you handling the details doesn't mean you aren't in charge.

Maybe Payton didn't have total control. I think he did based on the evidence, but even if I'm wrong and he didn't, he clearly had a lot of power to do what he wanted with the roster and with the draft.

And, I'm not really blaming Payton for the current situation. DA, Ireland, and Loomis have had 3 years to fix it and they haven't. So all three of them share the blame for the current situation. But Payton did leave this team in a bad situation so I am blaming him for the situation that existed when he left. But Loomis, Ireland, and DA have done a bad job of making that situation better.

 

[Covington Saint]

So let’s just bring Billicheck in and let him take over!

Bill Belichek
Brian Flores
Aaron Glenn
Robert Saleh
Mike Vrabel
Wildcard Joe Brady.

There's your interesting list.

 

[No2DC]

ESPN says we're in the worst shape among bad teams.

Barnwell stacks the NFL's most hopeless franchises: Six teams with dire situations for 2024 and beyond

The Browns, Giants, Panthers, Raiders, Saints and Titans have roster issues and huge questions for 2025. Which team could turn things around?

www.espn.com

Which team has it worst?
I have to go with the Saints. While they could have competed for a playoff berth before the injuries, the defensive collapse I've witnessed over the past few weeks and the sheer amount of time it will take to return to being a cap-compliant team on a growth track is staggering. They are a couple of years away from even being in position to start a multiyear rebuilding process.

 

[longtime lurker]

ESPN says we're in the worst shape among bad teams.

Barnwell stacks the NFL's most hopeless franchises: Six teams with dire situations for 2024 and beyond

The Browns, Giants, Panthers, Raiders, Saints and Titans have roster issues and huge questions for 2025. Which team could turn things around?

www.espn.com

Which team has it worst?
I have to go with the Saints. While they could have competed for a playoff berth before the injuries, the defensive collapse I've witnessed over the past few weeks and the sheer amount of time it will take to return to being a cap-compliant team on a growth track is staggering. They are a couple of years away from even being in position to start a multiyear rebuilding process.

Yep, no miraculous turnaround is coming with our current HC in charge….flat, uninspiring, weak, apologetic, is not going to inspire the limited talent and depth we have to play any harder.

 

[Waymer]

You can get a franchise QB without tanking. The success rate for first round QBs, even high pick 1st round QBs is very low. And just because you are competitive doesn't mean that you can't trade up higher to draft that franchise QB or that you can't find him later in the first or in later rounds. The list of first round bust QBs is very long and picking high by tanking doesn't gain you anything on average.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on two things -- that you can get a franchise QB without tanking, and that success rate is low (since 1999 -- not counting this season -- only 28 of 74 have been "franchise" QBs). Both can be true. But it is also true that we shouldn't discount that most QBs in the NFL that find success end up being high picks.

Just look at the breakdown of current NFL QBs:

1st round picks: L. Jackson, J. Allen, J. Burrow, J. Winson (D. Watson), B. Nix, A. Richardson (J. Flacco), T. Lawerence, P. Mahomes, J. Herbert, D. Maye, A. Rodgers, W. Levis, K. Murray, C. Williams, J. Goff, J. Love, M. Stafford, S. Darnold (JJ McCarthy), D. Jones, B. Mayfield, J. Daniels (Mariota 1st), CJ Stroud, T. Tagovailoa (potentially back next week according to sources).

23 of 32 teams have starting 1st round QBs.

2nd round picks: J. Hurts, G. Smith, A. Dalton (B. Young was 1st), Derek Carr (Rattler 5th)

27 of 32 teams have 1st/2nd round starting QBs.

3rd round picks: R. Wilson (J. Fields was 1st)

4th round picks: K. Cousins (Penix is 1st) , D. Prescott

30 of 32 teams have 1st-4th round stating QBs.

6th: G. Minshew

7th: B. Purdy

...There are a number of high draft picks in there as well as backups beyond the ones I listed in parentheses. You can call it user bias that all these guys are still in the league, but it's a reality -- most starting QBs in the NFL have to come from the 1st round. Rare is the Tom Brady.

 

[Steve in Colorado]

As CovingtonSaint astutely pointed out, this is all I can think about when reading this thread.

 

[Hubig]

ESPN says we're in the worst shape among bad teams.

Barnwell stacks the NFL's most hopeless franchises: Six teams with dire situations for 2024 and beyond

The Browns, Giants, Panthers, Raiders, Saints and Titans have roster issues and huge questions for 2025. Which team could turn things around?

www.espn.com

Which team has it worst?
I have to go with the Saints. While they could have competed for a playoff berth before the injuries, the defensive collapse I've witnessed over the past few weeks and the sheer amount of time it will take to return to being a cap-compliant team on a growth track is staggering. They are a couple of years away from even being in position to start a multiyear rebuilding process.

This is why its up to the fans to punish the organization when they're acting stupid. Sure ticket sales are probably a small fraction of the pot when overall revenue sharing with huge T.V contracts is factored in. Its the embarrassment factor, the shame, that will do the trick. Fans making the NFL look bad when theres a game and the stadium isn't popping off. Every bad team eventually has a primetime game, let the national folks start talking about how empty the stadium is and good ol Gayle is probably gonna get a call from someone in New York to have a "chat".

Why spend hard earned money to show up, sometimes days in advance if you're from out of state or even out of the region for an organization that really isn't moving mountains to get better? Fans get what they deserve at that point if you continue blindly supporting a bad product. Sometimes the only way to force the hand of something is to stop rewarding it. The Saints organization aren't entitled to your money if they're just gonna use excuse after excuse as to why this thing has been a failure for 2.5 seasons, with a half of the 3rd season to go.

 

[Saint Jack]

ESPN says we're in the worst shape among bad teams.

Barnwell stacks the NFL's most hopeless franchises: Six teams with dire situations for 2024 and beyond

The Browns, Giants, Panthers, Raiders, Saints and Titans have roster issues and huge questions for 2025. Which team could turn things around?

www.espn.com

Which team has it worst?
I have to go with the Saints. While they could have competed for a playoff berth before the injuries, the defensive collapse I've witnessed over the past few weeks and the sheer amount of time it will take to return to being a cap-compliant team on a growth track is staggering. They are a couple of years away from even being in position to start a multiyear rebuilding process.

The advantage the Saints have is that the division doesn’t have a superstar coach or a long term franchise QB.
It’s not as dire as Barnwell makes it.

And the Browns by far have the worst situation.
A historically bad owner.
A cycle of losing that has gone on for over a quarter century at this point.
And being in the same division as Pittsburgh, which has been consistently good forever.
Along with having to chase Burrow and the Bengals along with the Ravens and Lamar.

 

[Saint Jack]

This is why its up to the fans to punish the organization when they're acting stupid. Sure ticket sales are probably a small fraction of the pot when overall revenue sharing with huge T.V contracts is factored in. Its the embarrassment factor, the shame, that will do the trick. Fans making the NFL look bad when theres a game and the stadium isn't popping off. Every bad team eventually has a primetime game, let the national folks start talking about how empty the stadium is and good ol Gayle is probably gonna get a call from someone in New York to have a "chat".

Why spend hard earned money to show up, sometimes days in advance if you're from out of state or even out of the region for an organization that really isn't moving mountains to get better? Fans get what they deserve at that point if you continue blindly supporting a bad product. Sometimes the only way to force the hand of something is to stop rewarding it. The Saints organization aren't entitled to your money if they're just gonna use excuse after excuse as to why this thing has been a failure for 2.5 seasons, with a half of the 3rd season to go.

I keep saying this, but the Saints use the fact that they are the only pro team from here to Atlanta to their advantage.
It’s not like the Northeast where there are 20 teams across multiple sports competing for your dollars.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

I don't necessarily disagree with you on two things -- that you can get a franchise QB without tanking, and that success rate is low (since 1999 -- not counting this season -- only 28 of 74 have been "franchise" QBs). Both can be true. But it is also true that we shouldn't discount that most QBs in the NFL that find success end up being high picks.

Just look at the breakdown of current NFL QBs:

1st round picks: L. Jackson, J. Allen, J. Burrow, J. Winson (D. Watson), B. Nix, A. Richardson (J. Flacco), T. Lawerence, P. Mahomes, J. Herbert, D. Maye, A. Rodgers, W. Levis, K. Murray, C. Williams, J. Goff, J. Love, M. Stafford, S. Darnold (JJ McCarthy), D. Jones, B. Mayfield, J. Daniels (Mariota 1st), CJ Stroud, T. Tagovailoa (potentially back next week according to sources).

23 of 32 teams have starting 1st round QBs.

2nd round picks: J. Hurts, G. Smith, A. Dalton (B. Young was 1st), Derek Carr (Rattler 5th)

27 of 32 teams have 1st/2nd round starting QBs.

3rd round picks: R. Wilson (J. Fields was 1st)

4th round picks: K. Cousins (Penix is 1st) , D. Prescott

30 of 32 teams have 1st-4th round stating QBs.

6th: G. Minshew

7th: B. Purdy

...There are a number of high draft picks in there as well as backups beyond the ones I listed in parentheses. You can call it user bias that all these guys are still in the league, but it's a reality -- most starting QBs in the NFL have to come from the 1st round. Rare is the Tom Brady.

Keep losing and if it's bad enough scrap it all, get a new QB and coach. If DA pulls a rabbit out of his hat, stop trading away picks, start building depth. Rumor has it Loomis had a trade back in the works had Bowers dropped to us. That at least acknowledges that along w/ the minimal FA spending they did this year, they have definitely changed philosophies w/ regards to cap management.

I'm sure they flirted w/ signing Adams becaues it looked like they had an opportunity to win, but they also ultimately didn't and refrained from making a trade for Mike Williams as well.

They're doing thigns differently, even if we aren't happy about the current situation.

 

[No2DC]

The advantage the Saints have is that the division doesn’t have a superstar coach or a long term franchise QB.
It’s not as dire as Barnwell makes it.

And the Browns by far have the worst situation.
A historically bad owner.
A cycle of losing that has gone on for over a quarter century at this point.
And being in the same division as Pittsburgh, which has been consistently good forever.
Along with having to chase Burrow and the Bengals along with the Ravens and Lamar.

It's a glass half-empty situation, and I don't think we're in a position to talk about anyone's owner. We have an elderly owner who has no concern about the state of the franchise and GM who refuses to admit he put us in this situation.