There's no easy way out of this (3 Viewers)

[Saint Jack]

Same thinking as saying our situation is worse than Washington with Snyder and “the league needs to step in”.

Look at the records of franchises after a HOF coach/QB leave. Except for GB and Pittsburgh.
It’s about the same.

 

[SweetT]

1st Goff was playing like crap till Johnson took over as OC
In 2020 the Lions from sucking so bad had the #3 pick Okudah the # 35 Swiftand #67 Okwara. in 21 they had #7 Sewell #41 Onwuzurike and #72McNeill. 22 #2 Hutchinson, #12 Williams #46 Paschal. 23 #12 Gibbs #18Campbell #34 Laporta #45 Branch #68 Hooker #96 Martin.
That's 15 picks in the top 96 in 4yrs. Plus lots of cap space I would bet $$$ if you gave ML , Ireland and DA that kind of ammunition along with Johnson as OC or heck Kubiak for that matter. We'd be in the same position as the Lions
Campbell is getting most of the credit for the job his GM , OC and DC are doing

You’re using the “assumption” that we would be yielding the same results as the Lions, had we had those same players. Thats not how that works. We can only go by what we do know and that is DC is getting the most out of his players, while we are riding a rudderless ship with our HC.
DC went from :
3-13
9-8
12-5 NFCCG appearance
5-1 currently

That is maximizing the talent of your players. Just look at the difference of the two coaching introductory press conferences. One said "This team is going to take on the identity of this city, and this city's been down and it's found a way to get up. This team's going to be built on, we're going to kick you in the teeth....We're gonna get knocked down and on the way up, we're going to bite a kneecap off“. While the other said “The turkey is prepared, I just have to cook it”.

One guy knew it was going to a tall task to rise a snake bitten team out of NFL purgatory, while the other thought it was going to be a situation where he just had to add a little extra. Two different mentalities. One guy has found solutions, while racking up signature wins, and has made his team a true contender, from a perennial loser. While the other is still searching for solutions, reviewing the tapes, and watching our players beaten down and defeated. I don’t care what ML says or any hypotheticals you want to use. The NFL IS a results based league. You go by what is factually in front of you. One dude is not like the other.

 

[blackadder]

Trades and picks are useless as long as Loomis is still there to waste them

It might improve if the next head coach who tells him what to do is actually good at personnel. All this suck is the cumulative impact of all the things Payton asked him to do to “win now” before Brees retired.

 

[sfidc3]

THIS!
No matter what success we had, Payton completely screwed this team the last few years. He was more responsible for personnel selection & his record(w/a few exceptions) was well below avg.

So far in this thread I've learned that that only coach to lead the Saints to contender type status and a SB win is responsible a full 3 years later for the current state of the Saints, which is really more unbelievable when you think that his last year we went 9-8, narrowly missing the playoffs with an NFL record number of starters (including starting 4 different QB's) missing games....

As a bonus I've also learned that we should tank for a college QB who recently got benched mainly (i believe) because his last name is Manning....

 

[tk421Saint]

You cannot salary-cap optimize during this transition period in my mind.

You play with the players you want to play with, salary cap be damned. If the players are not talented enough you CUT THEM even if there is a huge cap hit. It's just what you do. Why do you think Sean Payton shipped off Russell Wilson? Not his guy. Huge hit, who cares. I mean Lucas Krull and Lil'Jordan Humphrey are catching calls there for crying out loud. An elite offense did not beat the Saints.

Saints quit on themselves in the Denver game.

Personally I'd rather play with young inexperienced healthy players than an aging MASH unit. Rebuild with the talent you want, don't play out the contracts you have.

 

[JvilleJoe]

I agree that we need to get better talent and that means drafting better. I also agree that the reason this year is so bad is injuries. I also agree that we are in a soft reset and that the cap should not be an issue after next year.

And while DA might not be as bad of a coach as the record this year looks, he's still never going to be a good NFL head coach. We've watch him try for three years and it clearly isn't working and isn't going to get better.

I'll add that this whole won't be able to get a good coach thing is nonsense. There are only 32 NFL HC jobs and usually only 5 or 6 available each year and every one of them will have issues that make them less attractive than some and advantages that make them more attractive than some. It all comes down to fit and what things are important to each individual coach and none of us know the answer to that. Maybe they can't get their first choice or even second choice, but they will be able to find a good coach. Payton wasn't the first choice but it worked out well.

The bigger issue to me is in the scouting department. We need guys to do a better job scouting in the draft. Loomis should stop trading up and giving away picks. He mostly did that last year, but he need to continue with that and find a way to get more picks. But what it comes down too is that Ireland and his staff haven't been good enough since 2017 and a lot of 2017 was that they had 6 picks in the top 100.

I totally agree. Loomis moving up and giving up valuable draft choices is one problem, but IMO the bigger issue is scouting and ranking players. We have failed miserably there snd clearly the College scouting group needs major overhaul. It’s all about a lack of leadership and accountability and until that changes nothing significant is going to change.

 

[St. Widge]

It might improve if the next head coach who tells him what to do is actually good at personnel. All this suck is the cumulative impact of all the things Payton asked him to do to “win now” before Brees retired.

I agree. I don't think Loomis is very good at talent evaluation, but what it comes down to is that Loomis isn't a personnel guy, he's a business guy. So how much talent this team will have and how well they draft is totally dependent on having a head coach that is good at evaluating talent and good in the draft. Along with having good scouting and a good head of college scouting. And frankly, I think that's pretty much so true for most NFL teams with the possible exception of the Ravens.

I think these days most head coaches run the draft and pick the talent and DA is no exception to that. Payton certainly wasn't an exception and the way we handle the cap and the position we are in are all directly related to giving Payton the team he wanted. That's why we added void years and why we singed older players. It's why we always traded picks to get guys that we targeted. It's how Payton wanted it done and it continued with DA. Loomis is good at doing whatever is needed to give the head coach the team he wants, but it went on 3 or 4 years too long and it needs to stop now. Although to be fair, Loomis started the process of getting the cap back to the mean a few years ago. Although it was slowed up when Carr became available and they went after him.

But, it's time to stop doing those things and bring in a head coach that is a good talent evaluator. They need to build through the draft and add a bunch of young talent while they get the cap back to the mean. I don't really care if Loomis stays or goes but he needs to bring in a new coach that can evaluate talent, lead a team, and is good with Xs and Os. If he won't or can't do that then Loomis needs to go too.

However, for those wishing for a total tear down, it's not going to happen. First, this organization clearly does not believe in that approach. Second, they probably can't afford to do it because they would lose ticket sales over the long term and there is no guarantee that you will come back from a tear down. By the time they did, it may be too late the save the franchise in New Orleans. Many franchises take 8 or 10 years, or more to rebuild after total tear down. This team can't afford to take that chance. So, you are going to continue to see a soft rebuild and trying to put a competitive team on the field while they reset the roster and the cap.

 

[Waymer]

Let me be clear I'm not advocating the below is the way to go. Frankly I haven't processed things enough in my head to figure out the "best" path forward if I was running things. Certainly it would be to shed salaries and accumulate draft picks as many of us believe in -- but as to the exact "how" well I'm not there yet.

But if you really, truly wanted to "start" next year and being to "blow it all up" and it's fairly straight-forward numbers wise (#s are rounded):

*Cut/Trade Kamara: Cap Savings of $19M
*Cut Ramczyk: $6M
*Cut Moreau: $2M
*Cut Saunders: $2M
*Cut JT Gray: $2M
...
*Cut Carr Post 6/1: $30M
*Cut/Trade Lattimore Post: 6/1: $18M

Those moves get you compliant for 2025 ($79M needed). Now, obviously you push about $46M with Carr and Lattimore into 2026. Not exactly ideal. But certainly doable, especially if you go with young picks and cheaper deals.

There's also some alternate variations of this. You keep Lattimore but designate Taysom as a Post June 1 cut and cut some other guys that are $1M each (Ridgeway, Wilson, etc).

Again, not advocating this...but showing how it can be done without restructures and using cuts/trades only.

Edit to add: I think you also have to let guys walk. Not many guys in the 2025 cycle will get much, but a few could garner mid-to-very low compensatory picks. Even with the injury, Adebo would probably be the guy to get you a possible 4th/5th round compensatory pick if anyone is willing to trust his health. I'd honestly prefer he walk than pay him, especially to get out of cap hell. Beyond that maybe Willie Gay gets something back and maybe someone overpays for a shot at a guy like Payton Turner or one of the backup OL that can stay healthy. But it's minimal.

Of course we know this isn't how it will go. Just spit-balling what could happen.

 

[St. Widge]

So far in this thread I've learned that that only coach to lead the Saints to contender type status and a SB win is responsible a full 3 years later for the current state of the Saints, which is really more unbelievable when you think that his last year we went 9-8, narrowly missing the playoffs with an NFL record number of starters (including starting 4 different QB's) missing games....

As a bonus I've also learned that we should tank for a college QB who recently got benched mainly (i believe) because his last name is Manning....

Sean Payton is a great coach and a good talent evaluator. His teams play better than the talent they have and that's about the best thing you can say about a coach. And frankly, that last 9-8 year may have been his best coaching job given the roster and all the injuries they had.

But, it's also true that he left here leaving the team with no QB, no WRs, no cap space, and a large number of older players because he went all in every year trying to get another Super Bowl and traded away draft picks to get guys he thought were the last piece to win it all. The result is an aging roster, with little depth, and no cap space. I don't blame him for those things and we had a lot of success as a result, but it also resulted in him leaving when he realized the situation we were in.

It was a mistake to hire DA to replace him. I was a mistake not to go full force into the rebuild the year after Payton left. And it was a mistake to tell the fanbase that DA was a continuation of the success that Payton had. But, it would also be a mistake to not realize that Payton is part of the reason we are in the position we are in.

 

[HoustonSaint68]

I agree. I don't think Loomis is very good at talent evaluation, but what it comes down to is that Loomis isn't a personnel guy, he's a business guy. So how much talent this team will have and how well they draft is totally dependent on having a head coach that is good at evaluating talent and good in the draft. Along with having good scouting and a good head of college scouting. And frankly, I think that's pretty much so true for most NFL teams with the possible exception of the Ravens.

I think these days most head coaches run the draft and pick the talent and DA is no exception to that. Payton certainly wasn't an exception and the way we handle the cap and the position we are in are all directly related to giving Payton the team he wanted. That's why we added void years and why we singed older players. It's why we always traded picks to get guys that we targeted. It's how Payton wanted it done and it continued with DA. Loomis is good at doing whatever is needed to give the head coach the team he wants, but it went on 3 or 4 years too long and it needs to stop now. Although to be fair, Loomis started the process of getting the cap back to the mean a few years ago. Although it was slowed up when Carr became available and they went after him.

But, it's time to stop doing those things and bring in a head coach that is a good talent evaluator. They need to build through the draft and add a bunch of young talent while they get the cap back to the mean. I don't really care if Loomis stays or goes but he needs to bring in a new coach that can evaluate talent, lead a team, and is good with Xs and Os. If he won't or can't do that then Loomis needs to go too.

However, for those wishing for a total tear down, it's not going to happen. First, this organization clearly does not believe in that approach. Second, they probably can't afford to do it because they would lose ticket sales over the long term and there is no guarantee that you will come back from a tear down. By the time they did, it may be too late the save the franchise in New Orleans. Many franchises take 8 or 10 years, or more to rebuild after total tear down. This team can't afford to take that chance. So, you are going to continue to see a soft rebuild and trying to put a competitive team on the field while they reset the roster and the cap.

Sean Payton is a great coach and a good talent evaluator. His teams play better than the talent they have and that's about the best thing you can say about a coach. And frankly, that last 9-8 year may have been his best coaching job given the roster and all the injuries they had.

But, it's also true that he left her leaving the team with no QB, no WRs, no cap space, and a large number of older players because he went all in every year trying to get another Super Bowl and traded away draft picks to get guys he thought were the last piece to win it all. The result is an aging roster, with little depth, and no cap space. I don't blame him for those things and we had a lot of success as a result, but it also resulted in him leaving when he realized the situation we were in.

It was a mistake to hire DA to replace him. I was a mistake to go full force into the rebuild the year after Payton left. And it was a mistake to tell the fanbase that DA was a continuation of the success that Payton had. But, it would also be a mistake to not realize that Payton is part of the reason we are in the position we are in.

Killing it with the common sense, you are.

 

[lilvipa221]

However, for those wishing for a total tear down, it's not going to happen. First, this organization clearly does not believe in that approach. Second, they probably can't afford to do it because they would lose ticket sales over the long term and there is no guarantee that you will come back from a tear down. By the time they did, it may be too late the save the franchise in New Orleans. Many franchises take 8 or 10 years, or more to rebuild after total tear down. This team can't afford to take that chance. So, you are going to continue to see a soft rebuild and trying to put a competitive team on the field while they reset the roster and the cap.

This part is that one that cracks me up. This is exactly what Mickey is doing but when you just float around without a clear direction, you are going to lose the fan base anyway. If you just keep spending pointless money to avoid tanking but still are a loser you will lose the fan base anyway. But if you tank you at least give yourself a chance to get a franchise changing QB who can bring those fans back.

Problem is, this organization is not set up from the top down to rebuild. The top two guys in the front office are "money" guys who have no football sense in Harley and Loomis. That was the perfect set up for the previous regime with Payton who was able to make alot of the personnel decisions along with Ireland. Loomis should have retired with Payton but his ego got the best of him and its going to do the exact thing he has been going into the hole to avoid. Fans arent going to stick around waiting for this mess with no clear direction.

 

[blackadder]

I agree. I don't think Loomis is very good at talent evaluation, but what it comes down to is that Loomis isn't a personnel guy, he's a business guy. So how much talent this team will have and how well they draft is totally dependent on having a head coach that is good at evaluating talent and good in the draft. Along with having good scouting and a good head of college scouting. And frankly, I think that's pretty much so true for most NFL teams with the possible exception of the Ravens.

I think these days most head coaches run the draft and pick the talent and DA is no exception to that. Payton certainly wasn't an exception and the way we handle the cap and the position we are in are all directly related to giving Payton the team he wanted. That's why we added void years and why we singed older players. It's why we always traded picks to get guys that we targeted. It's how Payton wanted it done and it continued with DA. Loomis is good at doing whatever is needed to give the head coach the team he wants, but it went on 3 or 4 years too long and it needs to stop now. Although to be fair, Loomis started the process of getting the cap back to the mean a few years ago. Although it was slowed up when Carr became available and they went after him.

But, it's time to stop doing those things and bring in a head coach that is a good talent evaluator. They need to build through the draft and add a bunch of young talent while they get the cap back to the mean. I don't really care if Loomis stays or goes but he needs to bring in a new coach that can evaluate talent, lead a team, and is good with Xs and Os. If he won't or can't do that then Loomis needs to go too.

However, for those wishing for a total tear down, it's not going to happen. First, this organization clearly does not believe in that approach. Second, they probably can't afford to do it because they would lose ticket sales over the long term and there is no guarantee that you will come back from a tear down. By the time they did, it may be too late the save the franchise in New Orleans. Many franchises take 8 or 10 years, or more to rebuild after total tear down. This team can't afford to take that chance. So, you are going to continue to see a soft rebuild and trying to put a competitive team on the field while they reset the roster and the cap.

Or they go the Traditional model of a strong GM who is the boss and is good at evaluating and assembling talent. Loomis goes upstairs to be a business administrator and this GM hires and manages the coach. Coaches have desire and expectation of input on personnel, so you hope they see eye to eye.

Doubt it will happen but that is an alternative to Loomis being a business liaison for the head coach running the show.

 

[No2DC]

Or they go the Traditional model of a strong GM who is the boss and is good at evaluating and assembling talent. Loomis goes upstairs to be a business administrator and this GM hires and manages the coach. Coaches have desire and expectation of input on personnel, so you hope they see eye to eye.

Doubt it will happen but that is an alternative to Loomis being a business liaison for the head coach running the show.

This. Loomis needs to acknowledge his shortcomings (being a financial guy) and stop running that aspect of the team. Unfortunately, I don't think his ego will let him admit he screwed the whole post-Sean/Drew thing up. Either he took his eyes off the bigger picture, or Sean was lying to him the last few years, but either way, Luck Loo dropped the ball on the franchise's long-term viability. What I found interesting is that one of his former lieutenants (Fotenet) is running the strategy in Atlanta. We should have embraced post-Drew/Sean. The cut bait on Ryan (not saying Drew should have been cut) focused on young talent, and they're set (in theory) for the foreseeable future if Penix works out.

 

[sfidc3]

Sean Payton is a great coach and a good talent evaluator. His teams play better than the talent they have and that's about the best thing you can say about a coach. And frankly, that last 9-8 year may have been his best coaching job given the roster and all the injuries they had.

But, it's also true that he left here leaving the team with no QB, no WRs, no cap space, and a large number of older players because he went all in every year trying to get another Super Bowl and traded away draft picks to get guys he thought were the last piece to win it all. The result is an aging roster, with little depth, and no cap space. I don't blame him for those things and we had a lot of success as a result, but it also resulted in him leaving when he realized the situation we were in.

It was a mistake to hire DA to replace him. I was a mistake not to go full force into the rebuild the year after Payton left. And it was a mistake to tell the fanbase that DA was a continuation of the success that Payton had. But, it would also be a mistake to not realize that Payton is part of the reason we are in the position we are in.

Y'all act like you know how the Saint organization is structured when Payton was here and the truth is, there is only one constant from when that happened until now.....and that is Mickey Loomis.....the rest of it is just projection.....or educated guesses at best....trying to blame a HC that is now 3 years gone just seems ridiculous on it's face.....

I'd be willing to bet with CSP, we would have been in the playoffs last year and things would be fine right now.....

 

[St. Widge]

This part is that one that cracks me up. This is exactly what Mickey is doing but when you just float around without a clear direction, you are going to lose the fan base anyway. If you just keep spending pointless money to avoid tanking but still are a loser you will lose the fan base anyway. But if you tank you at least give yourself a chance to get a franchise changing QB who can bring those fans back.

Problem is, this organization is not set up from the top down to rebuild. The top two guys in the front office are "money" guys who have no football sense in Harley and Loomis. That was the perfect set up for the previous regime with Payton who was able to make alot of the personnel decisions along with Ireland. Loomis should have retired with Payton but his ego got the best of him and its going to do the exact thing he has been going into the hole to avoid. Fans arent going to stick around waiting for this mess with no clear direction.

You can get a franchise QB without tanking. The success rate for first round QBs, even high pick 1st round QBs is very low. And just because you are competitive doesn't mean that you can't trade up higher to draft that franchise QB or that you can't find him later in the first or in later rounds. The list of first round bust QBs is very long and picking high by tanking doesn't gain you anything on average.

And while 8 or 9 win seasons may not be enough for hardcore fans, casual fans will buy tickets if the games are fun and they team stays competitive. And nobody is going to buy tickets if they aren't competitive. And if this franchise doesn't sell tickets and merchandise for more than a few years, it's going to move.

Tanking and tearing it apart is simply no guarantee that you are going to come back. Many teams that "tanked" never came back. Look at Cleveland. Look at the Jets. Look at Carolina.

And the truth is that this isn't the NBA and NFL teams don't tank for picks. If a team has a bad record it's because they have a bad team and they earned those losses. But it's not because they tried to have a bad team and even bad teams seldom "tank" until the last two games of the season. Even then, most NFL teams don't do it because there is at best a marginal gain for picking a few picks higher.

The "good" news is that with all the injuries this year and DA as head coach, the Saints likely won't need to tank for a higher draft pick. They are going to earn all those losses.