Underhill article: “Saints moves are telling us what they felt the real problem with the team was last season” (140 Viewers)

[DSnfla]

I don't think it's about a backup playing as well as the starter. I think what matters is that when you plug a backup in to replace and injured starter, can they play well enough that the unit can maintain the same level of play as a unit. That's why a couple of injuries can be managed, but when you've got multiple starters missing in a unit it becomes a negative force multiplier that drags the entire unit down.

For instance, the offensive has four basic moving parts. There's the line, the QB, the backfield and the eligible receivers on the line. If you're just missing one lineman, you can work with that. If you're also missing one eligible receiver, it's more difficult. If you lose another receiver and another lineman and the QB and a backfield player, it's going to be nearly impossible to have the four moving parts all work in proper sync consistently.

When you have multiple starters out on one unit, it increases the likelihood of error and one error is all it takes to kill a play. It takes exceptional coaching to work around that. I don't know if the current staff will be exceptional, but I know last years wasn't. They had some really good coaches, but the coaching staff as a whole unit was less than exceptional. It wasn't less than zero, (hey...red), but it wasn't exceptional.

I agree . And I'll admit even if all our starters were healthy they were not an elite group. We were not going to be a great team IMHO. But we could have been a good team that would have a very good chance to win the NFCS. Our biggest downfall even if we were healthy was a poor HC and a poor defensive staff. I do think that KK and the offensive staff was good enough

 

[bayoumilitia]

I don’t buy into the injuries excuse. It’s cool to say it, as a coping mechanism, but 4 out of the top 10 teams that lost the most points due to injuries, made the playoffs (Lions, Bucs, Steelers, and Texans). The main thing, when deciding if a team is good or not, is the depth chart. If your depth chart is underwhelming, then you are not a good team…….you are just a top heavy team. If you can’t build a competent roster, where guys can fill in, due to injuries, then you are lacking at assembling a roster. Good/great teams overcome obstacles. However, if I were to play the “injuries” game, then I would say we were going to be nothing more than an average team bc that was the ceiling that coach showed was his best. I only go by what facts have presented

All teams do deal with injuries, but losing your starting QB, best offensive player (Hill), and two starting WRs for most of the year is really difficult for a team to overcome. Especially when you do have a terrible HC. It's not so much the number of injuries but the importance of those players and positions. But, sure, there was a serious lack of depth at all those positions, and particularly the OL. But who know if that was the FO or DA saying he was good with the depth we had?

And I'm not saying this is a good team. It's a mediocre team that likely wins 7 to 9 games, but if they get lucky and have a great draft, could win 10. That's obviously not good enough, but there is no reason we can't build the roster from here and the FO hasn't done anything that would prevent the continued slow rebuild of the roster. Not fast enough for my taste, but it is being done. But, of course, they have to get better at drafting.

Totally agree. I’ll also add that on the offensive injury front last year I felt like the coaching staff compounded our injuries to positions by not adjusting to other injuries with our play calling. When we lost Shaheed we still continued to run the same 9 route play with different personnel and injuries on the O line. Causing DC to get hit more, we didn’t develop a short/quick passing game or run no huddle enough to give our depleted offense any advantage during games.

 

[StudioSaint]

Now the team was good enough and it wasn't the coach or depth, just the injuries? Which is it?

With no sarcasm, it was all of the above. The coaching has been changed and hopefully improved. The new coaching influences and is responsible for the injuries and depth. Hopefully, the new coaches will improve those two things as well. Moore is of course going to think the coaching is improved and he seems to think he can improve on the injuries and depth.

 

[DSnfla]

If they just thought it was injuries then why dd they fire DA?

I think they saw how DA was losing the team, they didn't rally around him to counteract the injuries like a good HC would have had them. There is no doubt in my mind that ML was going to let DA go at the end of the season. Letting a HC go mid-season was not the way we have ever done things, especially when ole Tom was in charge. In hind sight letting DA go mid-season was no advantage. The D played worse and we got some juice from Rizzi that really ended up hurting us come draft time.

Make no mistake DA needed to go , and if having all the injuries was the catalyst for him getting fired then maybe I guess it was worth it, Because for me, I'm really liking CKM and the staff he's put together. And it looks like he does not want to tear it down to the bones, he wants to win as fast as possible. If we find our franchise QB in the next yr or at the lastest 2, that 5-12 2024 will be our rock bottom

 

[NatureBoy]

With no sarcasm, it was all of the above. The coaching has been changed and hopefully improved. The new coaching influences and is responsible for the injuries and depth. Hopefully, the new coaches will improve those two things as well. Moore is of course going to think the coaching is improved and he seems to think he can improve on the injuries and depth.

In football it's usually is a combination of things. But when it comes to selling tickets, it becomes selective. The Saints have become ticket sellers first and foremost. The strategy of rebuilding the team is dictated by it. It just reeks of a money man (Lauscha) calling the shots. Maybe, just mabye, Mickey's kick the can program was only supposed to be during Drew's window but the bean counters aren't giving him a choice now. I can't see any other reason why Loomis would have continued kicking the can. Sean's last season should have been year 1 of a proper rebuild. As for the excuse that Sean called the shots, Mickey should have stepped in. At some point, if the program isn't working or appears headed for a crash the GM needs to step in. I think it was obvious the Saints were in decline prior to Sean's last season. All of that said, I'm starting to think that it was always driven by revenue, which means they had to sell hope. I can't help but feel this way. I worked for 2 professional franchises that were 100% driven by sales 1st, performance and sport was a far 2nd.

 

[DSnfla]

I think it's mainly bc there's no evidence suggesting that even if the team was fully healthy that'd we'd be serious contenders. Our major weaknesses are run defense, oline, and receivers. Lines had next to no injuries and were still subpar, while we're one concussion away from Shaheed being our WR1. I think we've seen the team healthy in 2023 and there's really no evidence that we'd be much better than that going into 2025. Maybe an 11 win ceiling if literally everything goes our way. Then our team would have to start playing actual teams in the playoffs, which seems grim since we've beat next to no .500 teams in the past couple years.

Additionally, it's worth saying that injuries will be a fundamental problem even heading into the season. With how old so many of our stars are, the risk of injury is going to be very high and thus we need to factor that in when realistically accessing the team.

For some of the truthers, I really would encourage as a thought exercise to rank the Saints when compared to other teams. Saints can seem like they're pretty good when viewed in isolation, but soooo many teams look so much better when in comparison. It all just seems really grim.

Of course it's all conjecture. But we do have evidence by not only the 1st 2 games but the 2nd 2 games where we were ahead with under 1:30 left in the game and a fluke play and a DPI kept us from winning those games. I can't look into the miltiverse and see what happened in the alternate time line. But IMHO i think we would have won 10 games and very possibly the NFCS if we had stayed healthy. If that happens maybe DA does not lose the team. The team by all accounts seemed to be bought in in TC . And you know that after that start they were all in. Had we gone into KC 4-0 and fairly healthy , the optimist in me says things could have gone differently

And what is a serious contender and what is serious contention? Before the season were Denver and Wash serious contenders? Wash in fact had not beaten a team with a winning record until very late in the yr. And if Det's d had not been decimated by injuries and Goff played his worse game of the yr. The Lions may have very well beaten the Eagles and been in the SB

You can't compare the 23 team with the 24 team. Whole new offensive coaching staff , new LT , Penning playing much better @ RT . Gay @LB and Young on the edge.

Injuries are different every yr. Maybe this yr Miller stays healthy, Saldiveri stays healthy and progresses. Maybe Olave sees concussions are a real problem for him and takes steps to strengthen his neck area and he wears the concussion cap .

 

[DSnfla]

This is something that bothers me that I believe no one has touched on. I see all the talking heads and a few of you guys saying let’s rebuild, we are in cap hell blah, blah, blah.
What should we do? Eat the money and tank blah, blah, blah. I listen to all the relative talking heads even Matt Mascona.

Here’s my problem especially Matt because I know he played. If anyone of you have ever played football in your life sure you can do a rebuild but what signal does that give to Demario Davis, Cam Jordan and all the other 53 you need to buy in to give blood, sweat and tears to have a true roster that would be willing to want to compete. Footballl practice is a committed grind guys at any level. Playing is the prize. I know these guys are millionaires but they care. If u truly want to blow it up let them guys go and let’s play a tank team.

Real football players would NEVER tank. You can’t give half effort that’s how u get hurt.

We all work. Think about if your job gave you minimum resources to be successful. Sure if you are good you might can fight thru but why if nobody seems to care. Almost makes u want to just as much as the laziest person at the job.

At first I was like let’s rebuild but the reality I stated above hit. I can’t blame gum smacking Loomis with his approach lol. If and a big if we hit on this draft we can win it all or be close like 2017. Carr is capable. Run the ball effectively and Shut down the run…we are capable. Weak schedule capable.

Lastly the Saint brand is smart…. Put out a no name tank team or try to compete. Hmmm all season ticket holders is going to see what they do. Sorry for the long post but again from a former player I feel a type of way.

I completely agree. You rebuild which is different than tanking because no team ever really tanks on purpose only when you HAVE to. This misguided thinking that yeah, lets cut the best QB we have to get 70 mil under the cap in 2 yrs and have a couple throw away seasons and we'll just draft our elite QB and we'll be SB bound. It way more likely than not we don't find that elite QB the 1st time in the draft. And we lose half our fan base in those throw away seasons

 

[DSnfla]

I think it's more affected by the individual player than a player's age. Also, a lot of injuries from collisions/contact would happen to any player of any age. Off the top of my head, I think most of Kamara's and Hill's injuries have been from collisions/contact and aren't so much age related.

Healing time is more of an issue with aging and that also has more to do with the individual than their age. Our healing rate slows down at different rates and different ages. Kamara still heals up pretty quick, so I'm not worried about his age. What I'm looking for with Hill is how long his full rehab takes. So far, he has finished rehab at or before the average minimal time. If he does that again, then no worries for me about his age.

I think the Saints are going to wait until there's a strong indication that his rehab is or isn't going well before they make a decision about him. I think if they are confident in his recovery they'll keep him and take it year by year with him. There's several things I can see them doing if his recovery is going less than great.

Absolutely, Ak takes tremendous care of his body , he does not take risks. I firmly believe that if he gets a lil help from say Miller and maybe CEH or a draft pick he has 2-3 yrs at an elite level. I would also say that DD in Staley's D will be able to not be asked to do thing he's not the best at. Having Reid should let Mathieu concentrate on being a ball hawk.

 

[DSnfla]

Here's what we know about last season. The Saints performed at a very high level until mass injuries occured. The Saints didn't have good enough depth. The coach was held accountable. Now the team was good enough and it wasn't the coach or depth, just the injuries? Which is it?

I like Nick but this just sounds like the Saints marketing 2025 tickets. No matter why one might think the Saints lack quality depth, I don't think the reality that we do is arguable, unless its time for season ticket renewals.

Yes we lack quality depth. But I don't know of any team that has the depth to overcome the amount of injuries we had especially to the O. We had injuries to 2nd and 3rd string players, No team has that kind of quality depth. Add to the fact that we were not great on D even when healthy, now we were good but not enough to offset the lack of production on O due to injuries.

The lack of depth comes down to not so great drafting. If Foskey, Turner would have panned out we would have had depth on the DL and better performance. If Saldiveri had stayed healthy he may have progressed and would have helped on the OL

If we had had a better, stronger HC, like an SP . The kind of coach players can rally around and not kind of half way give up the impact of those injuries would not have been so severe
Nick is just reporting on what CKM and the staff have said to him about their opinion of the team and the roster

I'm betting that we have the kind of HC and staff that can keep the team focused and weather a storm

 

[DSnfla]

Totally agree. I’ll also add that on the offensive injury front last year I felt like the coaching staff compounded our injuries to positions by not adjusting to other injuries with our play calling. When we lost Shaheed we still continued to run the same 9 route play with different personnel and injuries on the O line. Causing DC to get hit more, we didn’t develop a short/quick passing game or run no huddle enough to give our depleted offense any advantage during games.

There were adjustments made , but when you have so many injuries and to 1 or 2 position groups, there is just only so much you can do. We seemed to rely way more on trick plays

 

[bayoumilitia]

There were adjustments made , but when you have so many injuries and to 1 or 2 position groups, there is just only so much you can do. We seemed to rely way more on trick plays

That’s kinda what disappointed me. I understand what you’re saying DS but it just looked like Kubiack didn’t seem to adjust his scheme once McCoy went down. Now, was that because DC4 can’t run a west coast version like DB9 (QB calls the protections)? It seemed like Kubiack stuck with the Center calling protections.

Once again, I get the injuries at the same position group but it’s not like we were devoid of talent totally on offense. It’s the NFL, all these guys can play. Maybe not at the Kamara, Shaheed, Olave level. I get that but when you know that “because of injuries” your QB has like 2.6 seconds from the snap to getting hit then you have to do different things to slow that down: no huddle/hurry up, move the pocket (even if it cuts the field in half, run 23 personnel if you have to.

Did we eventually do some of that after Carr got hurt initially? Yes, too little too late imo.

 

[CowtownSaint]

I don’t buy into the injuries excuse. It’s cool to say it, as a coping mechanism, but 4 out of the top 10 teams that lost the most points due to injuries, made the playoffs (Lions, Bucs, Steelers, and Texans). The main thing, when deciding if a team is good or not, is the depth chart. If your depth chart is underwhelming, then you are not a good team…….you are just a top heavy team. If you can’t build a competent roster, where guys can fill in, due to injuries, then you are lacking at assembling a roster. Good/great teams overcome obstacles. However, if I were to play the “injuries” game, then I would say we were going to be nothing more than an average team bc that was the ceiling that coach showed was his best. I only go by what facts have presented

Oh look Reality coming in real quick on post 2! Bravo and dead right!

 

[DSnfla]

That’s kinda what disappointed me. I understand what you’re saying DS but it just looked like Kubiack didn’t seem to adjust his scheme once McCoy went down. Now, was that because DC4 can’t run a west coast version like DB9 (QB calls the protections)? It seemed like Kubiack stuck with the Center calling protections.

Once again, I get the injuries at the same position group but it’s not like we were devoid of talent totally on offense. It’s the NFL, all these guys can play. Maybe not at the Kamara, Shaheed, Olave level. I get that but when you know that “because of injuries” your QB has like 2.6 seconds from the snap to getting hit then you have to do different things to slow that down: no huddle/hurry up, move the pocket (even if it cuts the field in half, run 23 personnel if you have to.

Did we eventually do some of that after Carr got hurt initially? Yes, too little too late imo.

We lost McCoy and Ruiz in the Philly game. A scheme change is not what you do due to injury. You may change some of the playcalling but not the scheme. KK did not run a traditional west coast system. KK did do some of those things. We had so many injuries in a short span that it was pretty much impossible to compensate for the injuries

 

[DSnfla]

Oh look Reality coming in real quick on post 2! Bravo and dead right!

LOL , here we are all having a good friendly debate on a topic with everyone exchanging ideas and thoughts, and you come in with a snarky unimportant remark that adds nothing to the conversation. As usual. I try and give everyone the benefit of the doubt but it's just not worth it with you. I really should just put you on ignore but I hate to do that in hopes that someday you may say something that's useful

 

[Treybad]

Wow did not wanna hear that blaming a teams bad season on injuries.... so your saying DA was not the problem.....
Just lost a little faith in this coaching staff before they even drafted or started training camp