Blitzer tells atheist tornado survivor:"You gotta thank the Lord" (1 Viewer)

[The AntiDitka]

I thought my post was pretty insightful and brought new information to the table, yet I have now 2 red thumbs. If you would like to tell me what you disagree with that's fine but please don't be a coward about it.

 

[St. Greatness]

Why does bad things happen to good people?

I like to think of the second century saint, Irenaeus, and the 20th Century philosopher, John Hick help with this answer. Also known as the Irenaean theology. I truly believe "faith" is the answer. If God didn't set the laws of nature in motion and magically patted our collective butts whenever something bad happened we wouldn't mature. Think of raising a child, sometimes its best to let them fall and fail.

I didn't neg you, but if you think people dying due to a massive tornado plowing into their homes is equivalent to "patting someone's butt" or "tough love," then I truly feel sorry for you .

 

[Goatman Saint]

Being an athirst, I like her answer, and how she followed it up with her understanding that people need to believe what they believe. Much classier than if the table was turned I assure you.

As far as a wrathfully god whose using tough love on his children, it's arguments like that that make no sense at all.

 

[The AntiDitka]

I didn't neg you, but if you think people dying due to a massive tornado plowing into their homes is equivalent to "patting someone's butt" or "tough love," then I truly feel sorry for you .

Really this is what you recieved from that post? Where in the post did I say that this tragedy where people died was because of "tough love" or "patting someones butt". The terminology I used was literally to explain this theological theory to as many people as possible. In no way do I not mourn for those people and think about their suffering. If you want to make assumptions based off of me on cherry picking a sentence, than I forgive you.

Just so there are no more mistaken connection I will clarrify my opinions. People thinking that a tornado is evil are mistaken. It is a natural occurance one that happens periodically. Even atheists can agree to this, which is why the Irenaean theodicy is a great point.

What is Evil that people assume?
A.) The awful things people do. B.) The awful things that occur like natural events etc.

We already know A.) is defined by free will which leaves us with B.)

B.) can be explained by using John Hick's theological principle. So I am not mistaken I will just quote it from the wikipedia site so people don't assume I am Hitler.

"A simplification of this view states that suffering exists as a means of spiritual development. In other words, God allows suffering so that human souls might grow or develop towards maturation. For Hick, God is ultimately responsible for pain and suffering, but such things are not truly bad. Perhaps with a greater degree of perception, one can see that the "evil" we experience through suffering is not ultimately evil but good, as such is used to "make our souls" better"

 

[El Caliente]

I didn't neg you, but if you think people dying due to a massive tornado plowing into their homes is equivalent to "patting someone's butt" or "tough love," then I truly feel sorry for you .

I am just throwing this out there, but if there is a bigger plan than just this life (maybe there is a life after this one) do you think death matters to God? It would seem that this is a probationary state in which we would be preparing to meet him at any given moment so, it's all part of his plan.

 

[The AntiDitka]

Being an athirst, I like her answer, and how she followed it up with her understanding that people need to believe what they believe. Much classier than if the table was turned I assure you.

As far as a wrathfully god whose using tough love on his children, it's arguments like that that make no sense at all.

As an Atheist you are contradicting yoursef to assume that God is choosing tough love. You know nature is a machine that is set in motion. God doesn't create natural disasters, he may have created the machine to makes nature but he is not the lever puller so to speak that spawns tornados. He doesn't whisk the good people away. He sets a world that is imperfect in motion to allow our souls to mature by allowing us to do good when suffering comes up. After Katrina I went and knocked down homes. I helped people in Emergancy shelters in Gonzales the day after and all of this has made me grow and mature. I wouldn't be the awesome person of dominance before you (yes vainity is a sin). Overall, whether a person is sick that you helped or poor that you gave a hand to, you have matured because of "Evil". In darkness God created light and for every yen there is a yang (for my buddhists brethern).

 

[St. Greatness]

Really this is what you recieved from that post? Where in the post did I say that this tragedy where people died was because of "tough love" or "patting someones butt". The terminology I used was literally to explain this theological theory to as many people as possible. In no way do I not mourn for those people and think about their suffering. If you want to make assumptions based off of me on cherry picking a sentence, than I forgive you.

Just so there are no more mistaken connection I will clarrify my opinions. People thinking that a tornado is evil are mistaken. It is a natural occurance one that happens periodically. Even atheists can agree to this, which is why the Irenaean theodicy is a great point.

"A simplification of this view states that suffering exists as a means of spiritual development. In other words, God allows suffering so that human souls might grow or develop towards maturation. For Hick, God is ultimately responsible for pain and suffering, but such things are not truly bad. Perhaps with a greater degree of perception, one can see that the "evil" we experience through suffering is not ultimately evil but good, as such is used to "make our souls" better"

Yes, really. You are trying to rationalize suffering as a something to be viewed positively. You seem to believe that "God" allowed the tornado to happen, to teach people some kind of lesson in "spiritual maturity." You even mentioned:

If God didn't set the laws of nature in motion and magically patted our collective butts whenever something bad happened we wouldn't mature. Think of raising a child, sometimes its best to let them fall and fail.

aka "tough love."

 

[The AntiDitka]

Being an athirst, I like her answer, and how she followed it up with her understanding that people need to believe what they believe. Much classier than if the table was turned I assure you. .

So how was Blitzer's answer to her being an Atheist less classy?

 

[TheMike62987]

Yes, really. You are trying to rationalize suffering as a something to be viewed positively. You seem to believe that "God" allowed the tornado to happen, to teach people some kind of lesson of "spiritual maturity." You even mentioned:



aka "tough love."

If I'm not mistaken, doesn't God use death to teach lessons in the Old Testament? One question I have regarding that, how can He give mankind the gift of free will, then punish them for their choices with death. Doesn't make sense.

 

[El Caliente]

Once again as an outsider, was this meant as a lesson on "spiritual maturity", or "spiritual preperation"? Either way, Religious or not, death isn't going out of business, so be ready at any moment.

 

[The AntiDitka]

"God" allowed the tornado to happen, to teach people some kind of lesson in "spiritual maturity."

Wait are you saying to a Christian that suffering is all negative? Really...

Without suffering Christ couldn't suffer for our sins. Why wouldn't Christianity think suffering is a positive; a route to spiritual maturity. I think maybe you should do some research on Christianity and suffering.

CNN.com - Breaking News, U.S., World, Weather, Entertainment & Video News

Front page you will read all the positive that is coming out from this tragedy.

God allows suffering is a factual statement. The question is why?

I again have never used the word "tough love", If you want to believe this word that's fine. A more appropriate term would be "love". You have used this phrase now twice from what you have read from my statements. I used the analogy of a child to describe the maturity one gets from seeing, alleviating, and experiencing suffering. The idea of suffering, death, and life are all key points in our world. You can't have one without the other. Suffering does have positives which is why I believe God allows suffering.

 

[The AntiDitka]

If I'm not mistaken, doesn't God use death to teach lessons in the Old Testament? One question I have regarding that, how can He give mankind the gift of free will, then punish them for their choices with death. Doesn't make sense.

Tough Love? Kidding.

Good question, though I don't know if this is for me. I was more arguing the existence of suffering, not Old Testament acts of God.

I don't know of any passage that has God personally coming down and killing someone in the Old Testement (I could be worng). Plagues can been viewed away as acts of nature; again like in a court of law I would have to see some evidence that God physically came down and killed someone. The one example I can think of Sodom and Ghomorra, I think the prophet actually went to look for any innocent people and couldn't find one. So I guess he "judged them". Good question but I think this question should get its on thread.

 

[Goatman Saint]

As an Atheist you are contradicting yoursef to assume that God is choosing tough love. You know nature is a machine that is set in motion. God doesn't create natural disasters, he may have created the machine to makes nature but he is not the lever puller so to speak that spawns tornados. He doesn't whisk the good people away. He sets a world that is imperfect in motion to allow our souls to mature by allowing us to do good when suffering comes up. After Katrina I went and knocked down homes. I helped people in Emergancy shelters in Gonzales the day after and all of this has made me grow and mature. I wouldn't be the awesome person of dominance before you (yes vainity is a sin). Overall, whether a person is sick that you helped or poor that you gave a hand to, you have matured because of "Evil". In darkness God created light and for every yen there is a yang (for my buddhists brethern).

No you said that God chose tough love. I was saying that for someone who simply does not believe in God, does not believe in a higher power or anything like that I'm in no way contradicting myself. I see weather. A natural occurrence.

People get sick, people die. I don't think that God has put this in motion to teach a lesson, anymore than if someone expresses their caring and love it is a maturation of good over evil.

 

[bleedblk&gld]

What's amazing is that this woman's comment sparked this debate. She says "yes, thank god" and this never exists.

Was her response that taboo?

 

[Goatman Saint]

To some. They either get offended or have to explain how it's gods will to someone who said they don't believe.