Derek Carr world tour thread (updated with combine visits) (2 Viewers)

[SweetT]

And the next two seasons were average equaling to an average 25-23 record.
If the Saints had gone 7-9 in ‘09, there would be a good chance the franchise would have let go of Payton.

 

[nakadish]

The point is, no one is expecting to go from 7 wins to a SB.

Some of us think the fastest way to a SB is to reset, rebuild, new coaching staff, etc and that might mean being pretty bad for a year or two. People think we can do that - while winning this terrible division. We cant. Its a bandaid. Its the microwave society. I think we are further away from the SB by kicking the can down the road to win this division than we are if we get a fresh slate and rebuild. Its more years with Allen and restructuring the roster to shave of 60-100 million off the cap every year just to stay mediocre?

I guess you missed the part where I was trying to be funny. But, that happens a lot.

But, the short-term goal is to improve, to get things going the right direction. I think it's still too soon to tell what kind of team including coaches the Saints have right now. The Saints still have a SB caliber defense, and they have 2 good young receivers. If the Saints can get Carr and somehow manage to keep MT, a top 10 defense and a top 10 offense isn't out of the question. I would take a chance on that over burning it down after one season any day.

 

[SweetT]

A straw man argument is guessing what the future division winners record might be? 8-9, 9-8, 10-7, what does it matter if it doesnt make you a contender. The actual division winner last year was 8-9. Who had a HoF QB, and still werent contenders. You keep making this up as you go. You cant see that winning the worst division in NFL history - current best QB is Sam Darnold - could lead to more years mired in mediocrity. Its an accomplishment, but long term goal? I dont think winning this division next year pushes us down the road to the next Payton/Brees run.

Its an accomplishment. It doesnt make us contenders. It doesnt push us toward becoming a contender.

If I may.
Do you remember the Seattle Seahawks that won the division with a 7-9 record and eliminated the defending Super Bowl Champions in the playoffs? Yeah that happened against us. That year and playoff win was a huge moral victory for that team. It showed what they needed to do, in order to belong. Now granted that they ran idle and finished with another 7-9 record the following year, but then they rolled off a handful of 10+ winning seasons. Plus they won the Super Bowl 3 years after that playoff game against us. The point is, you have to accomplish something, even if it’s small, in order to get hungry for something bigger.

 

[44slayer]

And yet there is nothing in history that proves your preferred way is better. Bad teams stay bad all the time, even after tanking or resetting or whatever you want to call it.

It may happen organically anyway. But it’s not the path we’re taking at this point.

Cant argue with not being able to predict the future, otherwise youre a straw man. We will know more after this season. I agree we arent going to tank.

To somewhat get this back on track, my issue is that I am in favor of Carr, but not Allen. I dont think we can afford him, but I think Carr is better than he gets credit for. People keep saying we were a play or two here of there from winning 3-5 more games. Thats where coaching matters. Bad coaches find ways to lose. There were an untold amount of 4th and short situations this past year that couldve been those game changers - while having one of the best short yardage backs in Taysom Hill, who is also the most dangerous upback in punt formations in the NFL - and Allen chose to punt every single time.

The concern is that Carr ties Allen to us. Obviously if we dont win this division with what would be the best QB and a solid D - you cant make the case for keeping Allen a 3rd season can you? How much would Carr tie us to Allen?

Even if we were to win the division at 8-9, 7-10. 9-8 and sort of back our way into a division title while not actually being a threat.....can we fire Allen? I just dont think Allen has the ability to lead a team. I somehow have more faith in Carmichael as an OC than I do Allen as a HC. And that is saying next to nothing.

 

[Saint Spud]

Cant argue with not being able to predict the future, otherwise youre a straw man. We will know more after this season. I agree we arent going to tank.

To somewhat get this back on track, my issue is that I am in favor of Carr, but not Allen. I dont think we can afford him, but I think Carr is better than he gets credit for. People keep saying we were a play or two here of there from winning 3-5 more games. Thats where coaching matters. Bad coaches find ways to lose. There were an untold amount of 4th and short situations this past year that couldve been those game changers - while having one of the best short yardage backs in Taysom Hill, who is also the most dangerous upback in punt formations in the NFL - and Allen chose to punt every single time.

The concern is that Carr ties Allen to us. Obviously if we dont win this division with what would be the best QB and a solid D - you cant make the case for keeping Allen a 3rd season can you? How much would Carr tie us to Allen?

Even if we were to win the division at 8-9, 7-10. 9-8 and sort of back our way into a division title while not actually being a threat.....can we fire Allen? I just dont think Allen has the ability to lead a team. I somehow have more faith in Carmichael as an OC than I do Allen as a HC. And that is saying next to nothing.

I understand what you’re saying with all of this. And I actually agree with most of your feelings.

I’m just of the mindset that Dennis Allen and this coaching staff proving all of us wrong after getting a good QB (Carr?) is just around the same likelihood as the Saints losing enough in 2023 to get him fired, then having a new coach come in and have us nail the rebuild with that regime. Too many variables, imo.

 

[DaveXA]

Cant argue with not being able to predict the future, otherwise youre a straw man. We will know more after this season. I agree we arent going to tank.

To somewhat get this back on track, my issue is that I am in favor of Carr, but not Allen. I dont think we can afford him, but I think Carr is better than he gets credit for. People keep saying we were a play or two here of there from winning 3-5 more games. Thats where coaching matters. Bad coaches find ways to lose. There were an untold amount of 4th and short situations this past year that couldve been those game changers - while having one of the best short yardage backs in Taysom Hill, who is also the most dangerous upback in punt formations in the NFL - and Allen chose to punt every single time.

The concern is that Carr ties Allen to us. Obviously if we dont win this division with what would be the best QB and a solid D - you cant make the case for keeping Allen a 3rd season can you? How much would Carr tie us to Allen?

Even if we were to win the division at 8-9, 7-10. 9-8 and sort of back our way into a division title while not actually being a threat.....can we fire Allen? I just dont think Allen has the ability to lead a team. I somehow have more faith in Carmichael as an OC than I do Allen as a HC. And that is saying next to nothing.

Well, I wasn't in favor of retaining Allen and even less so PC, but the powers that be have decided to give Allen the benefit of another season to prove himself. I would say that he should be on the hot seat this season and if the results are not good, then go a different direction. At some point, we have to accept the front office decision making.

I don't know that winning the division title means Allen stays on another season. I think that would depend a lot on how the team performs and whether they look like they're going the right direction or not. I'm sure we'll be spending plenty of time evaluating the team during the season.

I think what I want to see is them trending in the right direction. Evidence that the coaches are improving as well as the players. Building a winning tradition with new leaders is going to take time and that's how it was with Payton and Drew, and that's how it will be if Catr comes on board. Time will tell.

 

[DefensePlease]

Starting to feel like the Carr recruiting competition isn’t nearly as big as Carr and his agent would like. I was all for it but starting to get the “let him go” mentality.

 

[nakadish]

Starting to feel like the Carr recruiting competition isn’t nearly as big as Carr and his agent would like. I was all for it but starting to get the “let him go” mentality.

It's kinda hard to know what you are getting in the draft. You could luck into a Hurts or you could wind up with a JaMarcus Russell. You never know till you are 3 years down the road. At least with Carr, you know you have someone who's at least pretty good. Kind of a hard decision to make. It's easy to say just retool and go with a rookie, till you find out they guy you picked isn't very good and You blow for 3 years and you have to start all over again. That scares me more than Carr.

 

[sfidc3]

Carr is the kicker in the whole thing. I did say a few pieces and stay fairly healthy. With DC DA will be more confident in the position and maybe will let PC and DC loose with the O. There are plenty of bad HCs with good teams that have had success. If we had a good QB last yr even with the injuries and DA we would have made the playoffs and according to you that's meaningful

So what you are basically saying above is the roster/personnel has to be so good that even DA can't screw it up? Are you serious with this nonsense? We went from a coach that went 9-8 with a team that broke a record for number of starts missed, which was a coach of the year type performance IMO to a coach that took a talented roster with fewer injuries to a 7-10 record (at 4-9 the season was over) that was only 7-10 because we had some meaningless wins against mostly teams that were as bad as we are.....DA's choice at QB played most of the season, his guy.....IF and WOULD HAVE are not arguments.....

We changed 5 coaches in the offseason , not the same

The coaching leadership at the top is still in place with DA and PC and we let some very young talented defensive coaches go because DA has to be the de facto DC.....they also released the TE's coach because apparently Juwan Johnson was developing too quickly....or something.....

I don't know that winning the division title means Allen stays on another season. I think that would depend a lot on how the team performs and whether they look like they're going the right direction or not. I'm sure we'll be spending plenty of time evaluating the team during the season.

If DA leads the Saints to a division title he most definitely deserves to stay, the likelihood of the division being as bad as it was last year is slim, as is the likelihood that the Saints with DA will win it....IMO.....

 

[Saint Spud]

So what you are basically saying above is the roster/personnel has to be so good that even DA can't screw it up? Are you serious with this nonsense? We went from a coach that went 9-8 with a team that broke a record for number of starts missed, which was a coach of the year type performance IMO to a coach that took a talented roster with fewer injuries to a 7-10 record (at 4-9 the season was over) that was only 7-10 because we had some meaningless wins against mostly teams that were as bad as we are.....DA's choice at QB played most of the season, his guy.....IF and WOULD HAVE are not arguments.....



The coaching leadership at the top is still in place with DA and PC and we let some very young talented defensive coaches go because DA has to be the de facto DC.....they also released the TE's coach because apparently Juwan Johnson was developing too quickly....or something.....



If DA leads the Saints to a division title he most definitely deserves to stay, the likelihood of the division being as bad as it was last year is slim, as is the likelihood that the Saints with DA will win it....IMO.....

Another post with a lot of words that just say “I think DA and this staff stink and nothing else matters” in a different, longer way.
No one is arguing what he’s done so far. Many of us are just trying to discuss ways to improve the team and give him a chance to turn it around since he’s not going anywhere this year. If the team stinks again, he will probably be gone anyway.

 

[Saint Greg]

Starting to feel like the Carr recruiting competition isn’t nearly as big as Carr and his agent would like. I was all for it but starting to get the “let him go” mentality.

If it keeps going like this we may get him for our number instead of his number.

 

[Saint Spud]

If it keeps going like this we may get him for our number instead of his number.

That would be ideal.

Personally, I’d like to see us make an offer in the middle right now as a show of good faith and confidence to try to get it done while his market isn’t booming. Things can definitely go one of two ways quickly once Rodgers makes his decision.

 

[reason2believe]

Can this be closed?
I think Carr visited the Saints and Jets now.

 

[Saint Spud]

Can this be closed?
I think Carr visited the Saints and Jets now.

Why? Posters are being civil, even with their disagreements. Haven’t seen anyone outright insult each other.

It’s gone off course a few times. But it’s the offseason and we’re all waiting for that domino to fall.

 

[sfidc3]

Another post with a lot of words that just say “I think DA and this staff stink and nothing else matters” in a different, longer way.
No one is arguing what he’s done so far. Many of us are just trying to discuss ways to improve the team and give him a chance to turn it around since he’s not going anywhere this year. If the team stinks again, he will probably be gone anyway.

Now you are "jumping into my conversation" with another poster to use your own words....and that's just fine, mainly because I realize this is a message board and posters can do as they please, and I find it really, really funny (and of course a bit annoying) when one poster chastises others about their position and actually responding to opposing viewpoints, because we are all repeating what we believe/think....all the time....

I understand and even respect your position to an extent, but there is a lot of a combination of fluff and denial around what DA has proven to be, and if I see it I'm going to point it out.....