Formula One (1 Viewer)

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Hard for the race director to direct the race when team principals are lobbying them constantly during the race.

Put gravel run offs back in, don't allow team principals to radio the race director and hire 3 permanent stewards.
 
mattgdg said:
Hard for the race director to direct the race when team principals are lobbying them constantly during the race.

Put gravel run offs back in, don't allow team principals to radio the race director and hire 3 permanent stewards.
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If Max doesn't divebomb every 90 degree turn from behind then Hamilton wouldn't have had to run off to avoid a collision. The fact of the matter is that Hamilton ran away from Max not once but twice in this race and had the finished handed over to Verstappen on a platter.
 
mattgdg said:
ok, I missed it. Was Lewis past the pits when the last safety car came out?
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He was close but could have pitted - but Max would have stayed out (with what remained a substantial risk that the race wouldn’t restart) and gotten the lead. So Mercedes thought it was best to keep the track position and bank on either the race finishing yellow or Lewis holding Max off, especially if the lapped cars weren’t allowed through before the restart (because usually that takes a lap and there weren’t enough laps left).

But race control ruined Mercedes’ calculation by sending the lapped cars between Max and Lewis around and ending the safety car on the same lap. So Max got to start just behind Lewis with new soft tires. Lewis was a sitting duck.
 
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For those that don't watch Nascar, the rules have developed there over the years to what is now very little gray area when it comes to how to handle a late-race yellow flag. Nascar has many more yellows than F1, and caution periods near the end of race are far more common. After years of inconsistency and race control's determinations based on "individual race conditions" drawing criticism from fans and writers/analysts, Nascar developed what is now known simply as Overtime.

The way Nascar's system works is that a race will not end under yellow unless the yellow comes out on the final lap. In other words, after the leader takes the white flag for the final lap, the "next flag" ends the race. They try to finish under green racing conditions but if a safety issue precludes it, they throw the yellow and the leader at that moment is the winner.

But any yellow flag before the white flag (to indicate the final lap) will result in at least two laps to go (green->white->checker). If a late race caution gets cleared before two to go, they run the scheduled distance as planned. But if they are unable to get the caution cleared with at least of two laps to go, there will still be (by rule) two laps to race - no matter how long the caution takes . . . which means the race goes in excess of the scheduled distance, but guarantees a two-lap race to the finish (hence the name 'overtime').

Under yellow, cars can pit if they choose, but will lose track position to those cars that stay out. And lapped cars are always sent around and/or lined up behind the lead lap cars, it's simply part of the procedure. But because there's guaranteed two laps of racing, there's no time pressure to have to make unusual decisions - they can get it right and then throw the green. And these rules are all very clear and everyone knows how they work and what to expect when a late race caution occurs - there's no discretion with race control. The only thing that remains discretionary is whether the incident itself merits a full yellow (there's no such thing as a section yellow on an oval).

Yes, going further than scheduled can complicate race strategy on fuel and tires. Some purists originally defended this idea strongly: a race is a pre-determined distance and it shouldn't be changed even if it means the final laps aren't raced because they're under yellow. But the idea that prevailed is that a race is an event held for spectators and viewers, and it is better for competition, for in-person fans who spend a lot of time and money to be there to watch a race to the finish, and for the overall drama of the sport to have the finish be raced rather than in a caution parade.

I think Nascar has it right. Again, it happens far more frequently in Nascar so they're not only more experienced with it but it's a more acute issue (because it happens so often). But in a situation like today in F1, the weakness of having so much ambiguity in the system brings substantial (and deserved) criticism.

Under Nascar's rule, the race today would have gone extra distance. The lapped cars between Lewis and Max would have been sent around . . . and then they would have lined up and gone green for two laps. And everyone would have known that was going to happen. So Lewis may have still elected to stay out, the question of the leader staying out or pitting for tires is always high drama in Nascar. But there's no griping about what happens because it's a set procedure. If you then lose to the second place guy because he has fresh tires, oh well that's just racing.
 
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BayouSAINTJoe said:
If Max doesn't divebomb every 90 degree turn from behind then Hamilton wouldn't have had to run off to avoid a collision. The fact of the matter is that Hamilton ran away from Max not once but twice in this race and had the finished handed over to Verstappen on a platter.
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I meant more to stop all the track limits nonsense. Anyways, never understood why Lewis doesn't pull the over/under knowing that Max is always going to miss the apex while protecting the inside.
 
mattgdg said:
I meant more to stop all the track limits nonsense. Anyways, never understood why Lewis doesn't pull the over/under knowing that Max is always going to miss the apex while protecting the inside.
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That's what I was thinking as well...Lewis at this point has to know that Max is going to plow the 90 degree turns, he needs to move downtrack and force Max High...even in the 1 lap "race to the finish" Max made the same move, he just had the softies to make it stick a little better. I'm all whatever now, F1 had a bunch of paths to take this morning, they chose the worse one...none of it's on Max, he did what he had to do and Red Bull got the miracle they were looking for...its just that for as such a great season it was, the ending was garbage. This was kinda like the last season of Game of Thrones...so much promise but a BS ending.
 
BayouSAINTJoe said:
That's what I was thinking as well...Lewis at this point has to know that Max is going to plow the 90 degree turns, he needs to move downtrack and force Max High...even in the 1 lap "race to the finish" Max made the same move, he just had the softies to make it stick a little better. I'm all whatever now, F1 had a bunch of paths to take this morning, they chose the worse one...none of it's on Max, he did what he had to do and Red Bull got the miracle they were looking for...its just that for as such a great season it was, the ending was garbage. This was kinda like the last season of Game of Thrones...so much promise but a BS ending.
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Yeah, I was gonna say Lewis tried cut back under Max on the late pass but there he didn't have the tires.

The irony is that Max and Red Bull honestly believed, before the Latifi incident, that FIA favored Lewis and that if there was any ambiguity, it was going to go Lewis's way. After the turn six deal on lap 1, Lewis supposedly gave back the advantage (he clearly didn't) and Max and Red Bull were disappointed but not incensed because a few things haven't gone their way (usually deserved) and they felt like that was just going to be the way it was gonna go. Accurate or not, you could hear it in their voices.

I think that Masi wanted to give everyone a race to the finish and did whatever it took to get the race restarted. Of course that effectively penalized Mercedes because it was unusual - it wasn't how they typically do it and when you're calling race strategy, you have to be able to rely on expectations.
 
Mercedes played their tire strategy too conservatively, betting on no safety cars. Praying for no safety cars - remember Toto pleading with Masi to keep the safety car in because it would hurt Mercedes? Remember Lewis' bleeped out reaction to hearing double waved yellows? Red Bull's only chance was Checo holding Hamilton up (something he did brilliantly), and a late safety car. They played this strategy to that end and got insanely lucky.

Sucks for Lewis, because he had the race in the bag in the absence of a safety car, but was thwarted by two backmarkers fighting over last place, his team's fear of losing place while pitting under the VSC, and, as the seconds ticked down, a panicked and clumsy decision by Masi to avoid finishing the race on a safety car. Sometimes that's just the way it goes. At least we didn't get a repeat of Prost-Senna.


I don't see any reason why some procedures, if not absolutely necessary, should stand in the way of finishing the title decider on green flags, which everyone agreed was a priority before the race.

Unlapping the 5 cars isn't an issue to me logically. People complain that this disadvantaged Sainz and others because they didn't have their backmarkers cleared. But who cares? The entire rest of the field was irrelevant at that point. Unpopular as it was (I was screaming BS during the race, even after it resumed), Masi found some compromise that gave us the ending we needed, while dealing with an awkwardly timed crash. One lap sooner or later and apparently there's no controversy - but controversy and inconsistency defined the season, so it was a fitting end (regardless of who won).

Regarding the partial unlapping, people complain that Sainz had no shot to challenge Max for 2nd place. But given that Checo was blasted for holding Hamilton up and interfering with their championship, with Checo addressing this afterward with an apology saying that it was only because he was doing it for his team ... does anyone really think Sainz would have dared to race Max and Lewis on the final lap of the championship decider when he has nothing to gain in the WDC and a place to lose if he crashes? No way. The calculus doesn't work.

These same people say it's unfair to drivers like Ricciardo because he had no opportunity to gain a place, but not unlapping the cars (which is apparently perfectly ok to them) similarly disadvantages Norris at the front of the backmarkers. The only difference between the scenarios was that now neither McClaren could catch the man ahead, and the two championship contenders could duke it out for a proper finish. That's a fair trade off to me.

And now we have people complaining about the ability of teams to pit during yellow flags. Because Hamilton lost. Madness. The whole point is to inject some strategy into the sport for the spectacle. Something to break the monotony of the best driver in the fastest car from taking the lead and simply finishing the race. Otherwise, the FIA wouldn't have mandated tires that can't last an entire race.


The real issue is that F1 does not have a system that allows the pack to re-organize itself in-place during the yellow flags - something Vettel has been asking for for a long time. But their software is too inflexible to allow this common sense adjustment. So it seems that rigid, dogmatic thinking is so common in F1 circles that even their software engineers can't possibly conceive of a reason to devise a solution that involves overriding a car's lap number. Stupid. Short Sighted. Or you know what? Have two safety cars. One for lapped cars, one for the main pack, and pit the second safety car when they catch up to the main pack. There's a solution somewhere that doesn't require burning 2 or 3 laps of a race.

Meanwhile, the regulations fetishists are angry that Lewis and Max battled it out on the last lap on the tires their engineers put them on because the Race Director made a human decision to override or suspend procedures that were interfering with the conclusion to the most important race of the season. "That's not racing!!1!!". As if finishing the race behind a safety car is. I was personally shocked the race wasn't red flagged to reset the cars and change the tires ... but when suggesting this after the fact, these same regulations fetishists will point out that this would have been an abuse of red flags even if it would have resulted in the most 'fair' result.

So apparently the only possible outcomes are to give Hamilton the advantage on the restart with 5 blue flags between him and Max, or end the race. Sorry, but I prefer the ending we got because I'm okay with the race director tweaking little procedural obstacles in exceptional circumstances like the most important race of the season. Otherwise, why have a human race director at all? Just replace him with a set of algorithms and a team of data input specialists. I'm sure nothing could go wrong.


And I'm okay with Max winning the championship because he was the best driver this season - even if he's overly aggressive at times. If it wasn't for Lewis power sliding into Max at Silverstone and Bottas bowling his way through the Red Bulls the next week leaving Max with half a car, the WDC would have been out of reach a month ago barring a sub 2nd place finish by Max in the final races. Considering the only times Max didn't finish P1 or P2 was when his tire blew out, when Hamilton punted him off track, when Bottas ruined his race, and when Max teabagged Hamilton at Monza ... it seems pretty likely he'd have done at least 2nd. In the slower car. The Silverstone event alone was a 32 ± 1 point swing in Hamilton's favor if you presume (as Hamilton did) that Max would have won if he made it to maggots & becketts first. That alone nullifies Abu Dhabi, so I'm not mad that Max got a little luck going his way.


So, what's done is done. I don't think it was necessarily done right, but I think Masi had a tough hand to play and he tried to compromise a little on all the options to achieve a very specific goal (finishing the championship with green flags). People can be sad for Hamilton, that's fair. He did enough to win the Championship but for the actions of others. He's a living legend of the sport in the fastest car on the grid except around corners, so he's exciting to watch. All the complaining gets annoying though.


Oh, and congrats to Sir Lewis for his official knighthood - that's absolutely awesome!
 
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TheDeparted said:
Mercedes played their tire strategy too conservatively, betting on no safety cars. Praying for no safety cars - remember Toto pleading with Masi to keep the safety car in because it would hurt Mercedes? Remember Lewis' bleeped out reaction to hearing double waved yellows? Red Bull's only chance was Checo holding Hamilton up (something he did brilliantly), and a late safety car. They played this strategy to that end and got insanely lucky.

Sucks for Lewis, because he had the race in the bag in the absence of a safety car, but was thwarted by two backmarkers fighting over last place, his team's fear of losing place while pitting under the VSC, and, as the seconds ticked down, a panicked and clumsy decision by Masi to avoid finishing the race on a safety car. Sometimes that's just the way it goes. At least we didn't get a repeat of Prost-Senna.


I don't see any reason why some procedures, if not absolutely necessary, should stand in the way of finishing the title decider on green flags, which everyone agreed was a priority before the race.

Unlapping the 5 cars isn't an issue to me logically. People complain that this disadvantaged Sainz and others because they didn't have their backmarkers cleared. But who cares? The entire rest of the field was irrelevant at that point. Unpopular as it was (I was screaming BS during the race, even after it resumed), Masi found some compromise that gave us the ending we needed, while dealing with an awkwardly timed crash. One lap sooner or later and apparently there's no controversy - but controversy and inconsistency defined the season, so it was a fitting end (regardless of who won).

Regarding the partial unlapping, people complain that Sainz had no shot to challenge Max for 2nd place. But given that Checo was blasted for holding Hamilton up and interfering with their championship, with Checo addressing this afterward with an apology saying that it was only because he was doing it for his team ... does anyone really think Sainz would have dared to race Max and Lewis on the final lap of the championship decider when he has nothing to gain in the WDC and a place to lose if he crashes? No way. The calculus doesn't work.

These same people say it's unfair to drivers like Ricciardo because he had no opportunity to gain a place, but not unlapping the cars (which is apparently perfectly ok to them) similarly disadvantages Norris at the front of the backmarkers. The only difference between the scenarios was that now neither McClaren could catch the man ahead, and the two championship contenders could duke it out for a proper finish. That's a fair trade off to me.

And now we have people complaining about the ability of teams to pit during yellow flags. Because Hamilton lost. Madness. The whole point is to inject some strategy into the sport for the spectacle. Something to break the monotony of the best driver in the fastest car from taking the lead and simply finishing the race. Otherwise, the FIA wouldn't have mandated tires that can't last an entire race.


The real issue is that F1 does not have a system that allows the pack to re-organize itself in-place during the yellow flags - something Vettel has been asking for for a long time. But their software is too inflexible to allow this common sense adjustment. So it seems that rigid, dogmatic thinking is so common in F1 circles that even their software engineers can't possibly conceive of a reason to devise a solution that involves overriding a car's lap number. Stupid. Short Sighted. Or you know what? Have two safety cars. One for lapped cars, one for the main pack, and pit the second safety car when they catch up to the main pack. There's a solution somewhere that doesn't require burning 2 or 3 laps of a race.

Meanwhile, the regulations fetishists are angry that Lewis and Max battled it out on the last lap on the tires their engineers put them on because the Race Director made a human decision to override or suspend procedures that were interfering with the conclusion to the most important race of the season. "That's not racing!!1!!". As if finishing the race behind a safety car is. I was personally shocked the race wasn't red flagged to reset the cars and change the tires ... but when suggesting this after the fact, these same regulations fetishists will point out that this would have been an abuse of red flags even if it would have resulted in the most 'fair' result.

So apparently the only possible outcomes are to give Hamilton the advantage on the restart with 5 blue flags between him and Max, or end the race. Sorry, but I prefer the ending we got because I'm okay with the race director tweaking little procedural obstacles in exceptional circumstances like the most important race of the season. Otherwise, why have a human race director at all? Just replace him with a set of algorithms and a team of data input specialists. I'm sure nothing could go wrong.


And I'm okay with Max winning the championship because he was the best driver this season - even if he's overly aggressive at times. If it wasn't for Lewis power sliding into Max at Silverstone and Bottas bowling his way through the Red Bulls the next week leaving Max with half a car, the WDC would have been out of reach a month ago barring a sub 2nd place finish by Max in the final races. Considering the only times Max didn't finish P1 or P2 was when his tire blew out, when Hamilton punted him off track, when Bottas ruined his race, and when Max teabagged Hamilton at Monza ... it seems pretty likely he'd have done at least 2nd. In the slower car. The Silverstone event alone was a 32 ± 1 point swing in Hamilton's favor if you presume (as Hamilton did) that Max would have won if he made it to maggots & becketts first. That alone nullifies Abu Dhabi, so I'm not mad that Max got a little luck going his way.


So, what's done is done. I don't think it was necessarily done right, but I think Masi had a tough hand to play and he tried to compromise a little on all the options to achieve a very specific goal (finishing the championship with green flags). People can be sad for Hamilton, that's fair. He did enough to win the Championship but for the actions of others. He's a living legend of the sport in the fastest car on the grid except around corners, so he's exciting to watch. All the complaining gets annoying though.


Oh, and congrats to Sir Lewis for his official knighthood - that's absolutely awesome!
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Disagree with all of that.

Mercedes played their tire strategy too conservatively, betting on no safety cars. Praying for no safety cars
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So, you're saying that their 1 pit strategy was wrong??? In a typical F1 race, that's the preferred strategy, the only reason to alter that is because you're behind. As for Mercedes decision on the late safety car, they had NO choice in the matter, meaning that they were damned if they do, dammed if they don't. Had they pitted, both Red Bull cars would have stayed out and Hamilton would have finished 3rd.

As I said earlier, the problem with F1's rules is that they are not consistent. IMO, the wave around of the lapped cars in that situation was completely unfair to Lewis seeing how he had an 11 second lead over Max at the time of the crash. That lead was built due to Red Bull's failed pit strategy and they were bailed out by a single car incident, somebody needs to check Latifi's bank account. /jk


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If Masi really wanted to have real finish to that race, then instead of the safety car, he should have stopped the race at the moment it was clear that the would need a caution and started them again from a rolling start. That way all cars would have had the chance to change tires and they would have had more than the 1 lap to claim the race.
 
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