Is Kellen Moore not impressed with Rattler? (17 Viewers)

[St. Widge]

Dart played in an RPO system. Sure he didn’t have that one singular bellcow RB, but he had 5 RBs, with at least 40 carries, who had rushing averages of 4, 4.7, 5, 5.1, and 5.2 yards per carry.
It opened up a lot of what Kiffen wanted to do with his offense and allowed Dart to shine at Ole Miss. That’s just 2024. They also had a prettt good rushing attack in 2023.

Nuss (in his first year as starter) played in an offense who had major issues running the ball. Sloan called play action only 22.8% of the time bc of the craptastic run game. LSU threw the ball 60% of the time (6th nationally) and Nuss was 7th among QBs in drop backs. LSU also only rushed on 1st down 42% of the time for 131st nationally. There was zero balance. The only time they had balance was when they finally took the leash off Durham. Plus they only called a screen 12% of the time. It’s like Nuss was strapped by the ineptitude of how the offense was ran bc of what they had in the backfield

Essentially, Dart has had the luxury of having a balanced attack that is spreading out opposing defenses. While Nuss is having to sling it endlessly, with almost no threat of a run game.
Personally, I feel like Nuss is learning his NFL craft at a higher rate than Dart bc of his team’s shortcomings. Just my opinion though

To be fair, while LSU has no running game, they also run a mostly RPO/spread offense so you would expect the QB to have a much higher completion percentage than Nuss did.

 

[St. Widge]

Dart is intriguing, for me, bc of his mobility. I love a guy who can run. I don’t really care for these RPO guys. Nuss was only in his first year as a starter and I’ve seen him make way better reads that Dart has in his entire collegiate career. That’s just me though. Trust me, I’m trying real hard to like Dart, but there is something that is telling me that he will not be that guy at the NFL level, unless he’s put in the best system. Which we have no idea how our future system will work. There’s nothing to go by, in terms of results yet

I'm skeptical that Dart can be a good NFL QB, but I will say that Moore has has a lot of success with mobile QBs that aren't prototypical pocket passers. Barkley had a great year last year in philly, but some of that was the threat of Hurts keeping the ball on Read Option and just his general running ability. Moore chose his spots to let Hurts throw and it worked well. And Dart does throw a good deep ball which would pair well with a run game combined with playaction.

To me the biggest draw of Moore is that fact that he has done well with mid-level QBs doing what was necessary to get the most out of them. So while I may not be high on Dart, I am high on Moore being able to get the best out of any young QB whether it's Dart, Sanders, McCord, Rattler, etc.

But, my preference would be a QB with the mobility to buy time to make off schedule throws and enough running ability to at least take the easy rushing yards when they are there.

 

[meily]

I think Moore and Rattler can be a good duo.

 

[SweetT]

He also did many things that suggest that he will not be the guy at the next level. Do you remember how terrible he was against Ole Miss until the last year until about 6 minutes left in the game? And he was not good in about half the other games last year. I continue to say that he has talent but he is far too inconsistent at this point to be counted on as some sort of franchise savior. Dude only completed 64% of his passes last year and it's only that high because of his completion percentage against the cupcakes on the schedule. He even threw 12 interceptions to 29 TDs last year which is pretty bad for a college QB.

He looked good for most of the game against Wisconsin but even in that game his inconsistency showed up later. He might get there, but he has a long way to go before he should even be looked at as a first round pick.

There was absolutely too much on Nuss’ plate to be slinging the ball at over 60% of the snaps in his 1st year as a starter. People are forgetting that it is rare for a college QB to be a savior as a 1st time starter.

 

[Goatman Saint]

I keep thinking about this. I guess I really just trust the brains running this. We have 3 guys now who know QBs. Not a case like Allen or the people before Payton. Whoever Moore wants to roll with I’m good with.

 

[SweetT]

To be fair, while LSU has no running game, they also run a mostly RPO/spread offense so you would expect the QB to have a much higher completion percentage than Nuss did.

Not when a team can’t run the ball. There’s literally no threat of a big run play or any kind of chunk play on the ground. Being a one dimensional team in the SEC won’t allow a 1st time starter to have the greatest success. Nuss actually exceeded my expectations. I’m still on the wave that I gave Burrow and Daniels their 1st year as starters. Now, I expect Nuss to rip the SEC a new one. If he fails, he fails, but I’m 100% confident that he will be a big time name when the draft rolls around this time next year

 

[St. Widge]

There was absolutely too much on Nuss’ plate to be slinging the ball at over 60% of the snaps in his 1st year as a starter. People are forgetting that it is rare for a college QB to be a savior as a 1st time starter.

I agree with both of those things, but I also think that if he was 1st round NFL draft pick special, he would have dealt with those things better. And while last year was his first year as a starter, he has had a good bit of playing time playing in this system and several years to learn the system as a backup so it's not like he was going in with no knowledge of the system and no playing experience.

 

[St. Widge]

Not when a team can’t run the ball. There’s literally no threat of a big run play or any kind of chunk play on the ground. Being a one dimensional team in the SEC won’t allow a 1st time starter to have the greatest success. Nuss actually exceeded my expectations. I’m still on the wave that I gave Burrow and Daniels their 1st year as starters. Now, I expect Nuss to rip the SEC a new one. If he fails, he fails, but I’m 100% confident that he will be a big time name when the draft rolls around this time next year

I think saying there was literally no threat of a big run play is a stretch. They started playing Durham against S. Carolina and he averaged 5.4 YPC , with three long runs, and even Josh Williams averaged 4.1 YPC. It's not the run game you want, but it wasn't so bad that there was no threat and it didn't make them one dimensional. The bigger problem was the refusal to run.

Anyway, hopefully Nuss can make a huge leap this year. I think it's possible, I'm just saying that he still has a lot to prove to be worthy of a 1st round pick.

I also think his decision to stay in school instead of entering a draft that is considered to be a weak QB draft tells me that NFL teams didn't see him as anything more than a mid-round pick in a weak class. But, hopefully he proves them wrong.

 

[nakadish]

To me the biggest draw of Moore is that fact that he has done well with mid-level QBs doing what was necessary to get the most out of them. So while I may not be high on Dart, I am high on Moore being able to get the best out of any young QB whether it's Dart, Sanders, McCord, Rattler, etc.

Nobody seems to want to ask this question but if that's the case, why not just stick with Carr for the next few years. Carr likely has about 3 years or so before we see a drop off in his play, and in that time, Moore could potentially build a championship caliber team around Carr. I don't know that you can say the same, in that time frame, with a rookie, or even signing a QB this year and using Carr as a bridge QB.

I don't think any of the fans what that. A shiny new toy is always better than the old beat up one, but it's a legitimate option to consider, depending on what Moore thinks of Carr.

And truth be told, with the success rate of QBs, we'd be lucky to find a QB that is as good as Carr. The odds of a QB being worse than Carr is greater than the odds of being a top QB. It's very likely that 10 years from now, the Saints could still be looking for a franchise QB.

I understand the "Carr ain't it" argument. But how many years have the Saints wiffed on O-line and DE? How hard would it be watching Saints games if they did that with QB? And is there any reason to believe that they won't?

 

[SweetT]

I agree with both of those things, but I also think that if he was 1st round NFL draft pick special, he would have dealt with those things better. And while last year was his first year as a starter, he has had a good bit of playing time playing in this system and several years to learn the system as a backup so it's not like he was going in with no knowledge of the system and no playing experience.

Idk but Dembrock had more freedom with JD5’s legs. Sloan seemed a little timid against good teams with his offense. Even if you don’t have a run game, at least create a balance more than he did. He did Nuss no favors.

 

[St. Widge]

Nobody seems to want to ask this question but if that's the case, why not just stick with Carr for the next few years. Carr likely has about 3 years or so before we see a drop off in his play, and in that time, Moore could potentially build a championship caliber team around Carr. I don't know that you can say the same, in that time frame, with a rookie, or even signing a QB this year and using Carr as a bridge QB.

I don't think any of the fans what that. A shiny new toy is always better than the old beat up one, but it's a legitimate option to consider, depending on what Moore thinks of Carr.

And truth be told, with the success rate of QBs, we'd be lucky to find a QB that is as good as Carr. The odds of a QB being worse than Carr is greater than the odds of being a top QB. It's very likely that 10 years from now, the Saints could still be looking for a franchise QB.

I understand the "Carr ain't it" argument. But how many years have the Saints wiffed on O-line and DE? How hard would it be watching Saints games if they did that with QB? And is there any reason to believe that they won't?

I think we have discussed why it's time to move on from Carr many, many times. But, there are several reasons you don't stick with Carr:

1. Because at age 34 Carr is likely to start regressing. That will likely first be seen in him losing the arm strength to throw the deep ball. And, the deep ball off play action is what keeps him in the range of a mid-level QB. If he loses that deep ball, he's probably a bottom 15 QB. And he is likely going to want a 3 or so year deal which will take him to age 37 or 38, which means you risk that he declines during that deal and you are stuck with him.

2. He is due $65 million in salary next year with a huge cap hit. We can't keep him at that price so we either need to cut him, trade him, or give him a new deal. The issue with that kind of deal is #3.

3. Even if he can continue to be a mid-level QB, he is going to want that 3 year deal in the range of $50 to $60 million per year. That is way too much money to be paying for a mid-level QB that might decline when the contract will take him into his age 37 or 38 season and you have many needs to fill on the roster. Paying Carr that much for mid-level pay is a really difficult way to try to rebuild a roster and the margin of error is very low.

4. Carr is a mid-level QB, but you would much prefer to have a better QB than him. You would certainly prefer to have a QB that is more mobile and more consistent. And, at best Carr has maybe 4 years left in him so even if you signed Carr to an extension all you are doing is putting off the inevitable for a couple years. And, ideally you draft a QB that can set behind Carr this year before starting next year.

5. Carr has already asked for a trade. So, it seems he would be unwilling to commit to a 2 or 3 year deal with the Saints. So, the Saints might now even have the option of keeping Carr beyond this year.

6. Sooner or later you have to draft a young QB high. We haven't spent either a 1st or 2nd round pick on a QB since 1981 and it is long overdue that we do so. It's really the only way to get a great QB outside of getting incredibly lucky in circumstances not likely to happen again with Drew Brees. And if you are afraid they will wiff on a QB like they have on other players then there is no point in any of this anyway. If they are going to wiff on every high pick then they will never get better. But, they don't whiff on every pick and I trust that Kellen Moore and his staff of QB Coaches/former NFL QBs will be able to spot the right QB in the draft.

 

[St. Widge]

Idk but Dembrock had more freedom with JD5’s legs. Sloan seemed a little timid against good teams with his offense. Even if you don’t have a run game, at least create a balance more than he did. He did Nuss no favors.

I don't disagree, but Nuss can't run like JD5. Honestly, I think a huge problem with Kelly's offense is that it needs a mobile/running QB to work and Nuss just isn't that guy.

But, I do think the offense that Sloan but on the field last year and the play calling was bad. No idea why Kelly did not go out and get a new OC.

 

[sfidc3]

Looking at skillset, he probably wouldn't have looked good with us, the Bears, Jags, Browns, Patriots, and more. He still had to go out and produce but coaching, scheme, and situation made it much easier. A lot of us are really ignoring that Kingsbury's offense strengths and JD5's skillset were a match made in heavy.


We are really dismissing the fact that Jalen Hurts has been to 2 Super Bowls and outplayed the so called "best QB in the league" twice because of how we feel about JD5? I can't and won't do that...lol. The Eagles offense is built around Hurts, the same way the Commanders offense is built around JD5. They won what they were supposed to and lost what they did and neither team would trade one for the other. The kicker about the Eagles going undefeated is they both basically lost to the same teams...lol

Not at all, I love Hurts, he's come a long way and he is a top 5-7 QB in the NFL but JD5 may be a generational talent.....he's already better than Hurts....

Uh, if you don't think the Eagles would straight up trade Hurts for JD5 (and they would probably have to send draft pics as well) you are delusional......

 

[sfidc3]

There was absolutely too much on Nuss’ plate to be slinging the ball at over 60% of the snaps in his 1st year as a starter. People are forgetting that it is rare for a college QB to be a savior as a 1st time starter.

I think you are vastly overrating Nuss's ability here....he really hasn't shown the type of elusive mobility that Burrow did and he is really inconsistent and gets rattled at times....

I'll agree that LSU's offense (specifically the offensive line) underperformed but I just don't see Nuss making the kind of monumental leap that Burrow and JD5 did.....I guess we will find out soon.....