Israel (now broader Mid East discussion) (19 Viewers)

[Heathen Saint]

The majority women and children claim is absurd. I don't doubt dozens and possibly hundreds killed, but no way it's majority women and children. That has to be 100% Hamas propaganda.

Six TONS of explosives on a refugee camp. Most refugees are women and children.

I'd look into this more before resorting to calling these reports 'propaganda'.

 

[DaveXA]

How many women and children do you think have been killed?

How many would it take for it to matter to you?

Obviously the number isn't 0. We know some women and children have been killed.

At some point quibbling over how much the numbers reported by Hamas are exaggerated is just a distraction.

Would 1000 women and children being killed matter to you? 2000, 5000?

Questioning the numbers is just a way for people to avoid the point.

Well, I would say credibility of the claims do matter.

As for number of women and children. I don't have a number. The deaths of all innocents matter.

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

Six TONS of explosives on a refugee camp. Most refugees are women and children.

I'd look into this more before resorting to calling these reports 'propaganda'.

I don't think people really understand the demographics of Gaza.

There are some people who have the means to leave, and most of them did.

People like those living at this refugee camp, had no means at all to leave, and most of them are still in Northern Gaza.


Israel has at least acknowledged that they did attack the camp.

 

[DaveXA]

Six TONS of explosives on a refugee camp. Most refugees are women and children.

I'd look into this more before resorting to calling these reports 'propaganda'.

Read what I said...in context. The claim was the majority killed were women and children. Sorry, but I don't believe that at all.

 

[DaveXA]

I don't think people really understand the demographics of Gaza.

There are some people who have the means to leave, and most of them did.

People like those living at this refugee camp, had no means at all to leave, and most of them are still in Northern Gaza.


Israel has at least acknowledged that they did attack the camp.

It's not about the demographics of Gaza, pre-war. It's about the demographics of northern Gaza, now. It makes no sense that there would still be more women and children remaining there.

And certainly some weren't able to leave. But clearly a lot of them did.

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

Well, I would say credibility of the claims do matter.

As for number of women and children. I don't have a number. The deaths of all innocents matter.

Credibility of the claims aren't really that important though. It is a distraction.

No one should be able to deny that the number of women an children killed in Gaza is much higher at this point than the number of civilians killed on 10/7. We shouldn't need the UN going in and doing an investigation to count bodies to understand that.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

Interesting article about how the ICC might approach war crimes as between the use of human shields by Hamas vs Israel's obligation to avoid unnecessary deaths. Also delves a little bit into the politics surrounding their approach.

BLUF Israel has the burden (as far as the ICC is concerned) to demonstrate that the apartment building/refugee camp (or hospital or any other civilian structure) was being used by Hamas sufficiently to change it from a protected site to a legit target.

ICC puts burden on Israel to prove Hamas uses human shields - analysis

Post-October 7, the ICC is far more committed to delving into the Israeli-Palestinian conflict – and potentially the IDF’s conduct – than what top Israeli lawyers had hoped for.

www.jpost.com

 

[DaveXA]

Credibility of the claims aren't really that important though. It is a distraction.

No one should be able to deny that the number of women an children killed in Gaza is much higher at this point than the number of civilians killed on 10/7. We shouldn't need the UN going in and doing an investigation to count bodies to understand that.

Actually, I'd argue we do need an independent group who have no dog in this fight and determine the veracity of the claims made. If that's done, I'd accept the findings.

That said, I doubt that will happen. And credibility matters. Hamas and the Ministry of Health both blamed the IDF for the hospital incident, which most likely was a tragic accident.

And to be clear, I don't believe the numbers. They're making the claims, and I don't buy it, sorry.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

Credibility of the claims aren't really that important though. It is a distraction.

No one should be able to deny that the number of women an children killed in Gaza is much higher at this point than the number of civilians killed on 10/7. We shouldn't need the UN going in and doing an investigation to count bodies to understand that.

I dont think we will know any hard numbers in Gaza for awhile, if ever. At least in Israel there are a lot of ways to openly verify casualties from 10/7.

Even Al Jazeera is scaling back their estimates from yesterday - they now say "at least 50" and then quote Hamas as saying "400". That's quite a spread.

Israel’s deadly attack on the Jabalia refugee camp: What we know so far

Israeli air raids on the refugee camp has killed dozens and injured hundreds drawing condemnation from Arab nations.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

That said, I doubt that will happen. And credibility matters. Hamas and the Ministry of Health both blamed the IDF for the hospital incident, which most likely was a tragic accident.

And to be clear, I don't believe the numbers. They're making the claims, and I don't buy it, sorry.

Right, but at what number of civilian deaths do you care?

 

[DaveXA]

Right, but at what number of civilian deaths do you care?

You must have missed my post. I care about all innocent victims. The number is 1. Every death of an innocent matters.

Well, I would say credibility of the claims do matter.

As for number of women and children. I don't have a number. The deaths of all innocents matter.

 

[baarbogast]

 

[DaveXA]

Eh, Israel doesn't have to oblige them either. I don't have a good answer for how Israel gets around that though.

I think the bottom line for Israel is they can't allow their citizens to be subject to threats of attack like what happened on 10/7. So, it's not like they can let Hamas get away with it.

Also, let's not forget Hamas is still holding well over 200 hostages. I don’t think anything stops until hostages are returned and Hamas surrenders.

 

[Heathen Saint]

Read what I said...in context. The claim was the majority killed were women and children. Sorry, but I don't believe that at all.

I read what you said. You made a claim that seems to infer that medical personnel at the Indonesian Hospital is lying about the demographics of the casualties confirmed after Israel dropped bombs on a refugee camp.

Do you have any evidence for that / want to expound further?

 

[DaveXA]

I read what you said. You made a claim that seems to infer that medical personnel at the Indonesian Hospital is lying about the demographics of the casualties confirmed after Israel dropped bombs on a refugee camp.

Do you have any evidence for that / want to expound further?

I don't know whether they're lying or not, but I don't trust them either.