Israel (now broader Mid East discussion) (5 Viewers)

[baarbogast]

Just trying to keep some kind of perspective here. There's an awful lot of skepticism on when it comes from one source, rightfully so to be fair, but not from another source. Nothing should be taken at face value from any source, especially when a lot of info on whether or not a source can be considered credible can be determined from a first page google search.

The person that re-tweeted that is/was an American ambassador.

 

[DaveXA]

Just trying to keep some kind of perspective here. There's an awful lot of skepticism on when it comes from one source, rightfully so to be fair, but not from another source. Nothing should be taken at face value from any source, especially when a lot of info on whether or not a source can be considered credible can be determined from a first page google search.

Yeah, I'm just asking whether what the guy stated was the actual position or view of Hamas. If that's the case, then I think its fair to point that out regardless of the source. I don't think it's likely the mainstream media is gonna show this clip for obvious reasons. It doesn't fit their narratives.

I would ask if what he said was translated correctly though.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

The person that re-tweeted that is/was an American ambassador.

Its not like Hamas isnt happy to say those same things to the Arab world over and over again.


So, you're interested in resettling Palestinians?

No that's the UN's problem. we want to kill Jews.

Right, but you want to restore the pre-1967 borders, right?

We want to destroy Israel and replace it with an Islamic state.

Two state solution?

Kill all the Jews.

 

[DaveXA]

That's not really a good example. The options were invade, and millions of Japanese civilians die along with solders on both sides. The other was to use a weapon of mass destruction to try and make Japan capitulate. The bomb was the more merciful, and least bloody route.

A better comparison would be the time we bombed that hospital in Iraq. Was any target worth it? The question really being asked, even by CNN, is "Is there ever a Hamas target worth that many Palestinian lives?"

I couldn't answer that. I would say that if it was something that could bring about the end of the hosilities and it causes Hamas to capitulate, then it might be a valid comparison. It could potentially save the lives of more people in the long run.

But, we're in the middle of this. History is being written as we speak, and it might be viewed differently in hindsight.

I will say that Hamas' propensity to put civilians in harm's way by literally hiding behind civilians really complicates the decision making.

 

[jboss]

The person that re-tweeted that is/was an American ambassador.

That's not a very good look for a US ambassador considering the source.

Yeah, I'm just asking whether what the guy stated was the actual position or view of Hamas. If that's the case, then I think its fair to point that out regardless of the source. I don't think it's likely the mainstream media is gonna show this clip for obvious reasons. It doesn't fit their narratives.

I would ask if what he said was translated correctly though.

Apparently HEMRI has a track record with mistranslations or skewed contexts. Not saying that is the case, nor do I find that translation particularly unreasonable, but when I read a lot of the stuff posted on here my intinct has become, "hmmm". I'm keeping my skepticism up about damn near every piece of info out.

 

[J-Donk]

I couldn't answer that. I would say that if it was something that could bring about the end of the hosilities and it causes Hamas to capitulate, then it might be a valid comparison. It could potentially save the lives of more people in the long run.

But, we're in the middle of this. History is being written as we speak, and it might be viewed differently in hindsight.

I will say that Hamas' propensity to put civilians in harm's way by literally hiding behind civilians really complicates the decision making.

I mean it doesn't really matter what they do now. Some version of Hamas will always exist with the way Israel treats Palestinians. I don't think Palestinians are without blame either. Israel's neighbors all want them destroyed, and have fought wars just to exist.

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

I mean it doesn't really matter what they do now. Some version of Hamas will always exist with the way Israel treats Palestinians. I don't think Palestinians are without blame either. Israel's neighbors all want them destroyed, and have fought wars just to exist.

Right. it's not like the hostilities didn't exist before Hamas existed. Hamas didn't cause the hostilities; they are a symptom of it.

 

[DaveXA]

That's not a very good look for a US ambassador considering the source.

Apparently HEMRI has a track record with mistranslations or skewed contexts. Not saying that is the case, nor do I find that translation particularly unreasonable, but when I read a lot of the stuff posted on here my intinct has become, "hmmm". I'm keeping my skepticism up about damn near every piece of info out.

Fair enough. We should indeed be paying close attention to source veracity regardless where it comes from.

 

[DaveXA]

I won't post here, but there are quite a few posts on the Reddit Combat Footage page that shows Hamas fighters shooting RPGs and other anti-tank weapons at IDF armored vehicles. They also are using drones pretty effectively against IDF targets.

There's plenty of IDF strikes on there as well.

Both sides have clearly been watching and learning from the Ukraine-Russia conflict. Urban combat is gonna be real bloody. No doubt.

 

[J-Donk]

Right. it's not like the hostilities didn't exist before Hamas existed. Hamas didn't cause the hostilities; they are a symptom of it.

The most empathic view for Palestinians is to use an analogy of American Indians. It was their land. The British allowed settlers after the war. It was empathy, and guilt that allowed so many Jewish people in Palestine to begin with.

I mean the question not even being asked in this thread. Can you be the bad guy if you are fighting for your home? What acts actually go to far against an occupying force? They have already been forced on reservations, and are slowly being squeezed out of those.

Hamas is clearly wrong, the same way American Indians that killed innocent civilians in the frontier of old.

 

[DaveXA]

The most empathic view for Palestinians is to use an analogy of American Indians. It was their land. The British allowed settlers after the war. It was empathy, and guilt that allowed so many Jewish people in Palestine to begin with.

I mean the question not even being asked in this thread. Can you be the bad guy if you are fighting for your home? What acts actually go to far against an occupying force? They have already been forced on reservations, and are slowly being squeezed out of those.

Hamas is clearly wrong, the same way American Indians that killed innocent civilians in the frontier of old.

Except that's not necessarily true. Jewish people have lived in that region for multiple millennium (4,000 years or thereabouts). Wars and fighting over land/territory in that region have gone on for as far back as we know. That's not the case with the Indians who clearly arrived and settled long before Columbus arrived. There's not really any debate about who settled in the USA first.

I think both have claim to the land in the region and that's why a 2 state solution is needed. But, both haven't ever compromised on what the settled borders of the 2 states would be. It's partly why this has gone on 75 years, not to mention going back much, much further.

 

[not2rich]

The most empathic view for Palestinians is to use an analogy of American Indians. It was their land. The British allowed settlers after the war. It was empathy, and guilt that allowed so many Jewish people in Palestine to begin with.

I mean the question not even being asked in this thread. Can you be the bad guy if you are fighting for your home? What acts actually go to far against an occupying force? They have already been forced on reservations, and are slowly being squeezed out of those.

Hamas is clearly wrong, the same way American Indians that killed innocent civilians in the frontier of old.

I'm no expert in the history of the region, but are you sure that's a good analogy?

The Decolonization Narrative Is Dangerous and False

It does not accurately describe either the foundation of Israel or the tragedy of the Palestinians.

www.theatlantic.com

At the heart of decolonization ideology is the categorization of all Israelis, historic and present, as “colonists.” This is simply wrong. Most Israelis are descended from people who migrated to the Holy Land from 1881 to 1949. They were not completely new to the region. The Jewish people ruled Judean kingdoms and prayed in the Jerusalem Temple for a thousand years, then were ever present there in smaller numbers for the next 2,000 years. In other words, Jews are indigenous in the Holy Land, and if one believes in the return of exiled people to their homeland, then the return of the Jews is exactly that. Even those who deny this history or regard it as irrelevant to modern times must acknowledge that Israel is now the home and only home of 9 million Israelis who have lived there for four, five, six generations.

...

A word about that year, 1948, the year of Israel’s War of Independence and the Palestinian Nakba (“Catastrophe”), which in decolonization discourse amounted to ethnic cleansing. There was indeed intense ethnic violence on both sides when Arab states invaded the territory and, together with Palestinian militias, tried to stop the creation of a Jewish state. They failed; what they ultimately stopped was the creation of a Palestinian state, as intended by the United Nations. The Arab side sought the killing or expulsion of the entire Jewish community—in precisely the murderous ways we saw on October 7. And in the areas the Arab side did capture, such as East Jerusalem, every Jew was expelled.

In this brutal war, Israelis did indeed drive some Palestinians from their homes; others fled the fighting; yet others stayed and are now Israeli Arabs who have the vote in the Israeli democracy. (Some 25 percent of today’s Israelis are Arabs and Druze.) About 700,000 Palestinians lost their homes. That is an enormous figure and a historic tragedy. Starting in 1948, some 900,000 Jews lost their homes in Islamic countries and most of them moved to Israel. These events are not directly comparable, and I don’t mean to propose a competition in tragedy or hierarchy of victimhood. But the past is a lot more complicated than the decolonizers would have you believe.

Out of this imbroglio, one state emerged, Israel, and one did not, Palestine. Its formation is long overdue.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

Except that's not necessarily true. Jewish people have lived in that region for multiple millennium (4,000 years or thereabouts). Wars and fighting over land/territory in that region have gone on for as far back as we know. That's not the case with the Indians who clearly arrived and settled long before Columbus arrived. There's not really any debate about who settled in the USA first.

I think both have claim to the land in the region and that's why a 2 state solution is needed. But, both haven't ever compromised on what the settled borders of the 2 states would be. It's partly why this has gone on 75 years, not to mention going back much, much further.

Right. Hebrew/Judiaism has been part of the population in that area for a lot longer than 1948.

Everyone keeps putting a Western European lens on it. When Europeans came to America they didn’t find ancient scrolls written in Spanish or describing Christian theology.

 

[J-Donk]

Except that's not necessarily true. Jewish people have lived in that region for multiple millennium (4,000 years or thereabouts). Wars and fighting over land/territory in that region have gone on for as far back as we know. That's not the case with the Indians who clearly arrived and settled long before Columbus arrived. There's not really any debate about who settled in the USA first.

I think both have claim to the land in the region and that's why a 2 state solution is needed. But, both haven't ever compromised on what the settled borders of the 2 states would be. It's partly why this has gone on 75 years, not to mention going back much, much further.

My understanding is that Jewish settlers started to show up in mass about 100 years ago. In the crusades it was Arabs who controlled that land. Before that you have mainly fairytales from the bible.

There was clearly defined borders, but Israeli clearly doesn't like the idea of having the hostile natives occupying strategic weak points.

 

[DaveXA]

My understanding is that Jewish settlers started to show up in mass about 100 years ago. In the crusades it was Arabs who controlled that land. Before that you have mainly fairytales from the bible.

There was clearly defined borders, but Israeli clearly doesn't like the idea of having the hostile natives occupying strategic weak points.

There's far more than fairy tales from the Bible. Talking archeological evidence and such. It's a simple fact of history that they've lived in the region for thousands of years.