Israel (now broader Mid East discussion) (9 Viewers)

[Saintman2884]

That's not entirely true. Palestine was never a formally country/state to begin with. Certainly many Palestinians lived in what is now Israel before that territory was declared Israel in 1948. Prior to that it was a British territory and region was informally called Palestine.

The point of reference we're working from would need to be defined before we start talking about time periods. Are you going back to pre-1948?

Also, Palestine was a region controlled and ruled by the Ottoman Empire for centuries, dating back to the late Middle Ages and collapse of the Byzantine Empire, fall of Crusader states like Acre, in 1291. It wasn’t until the mid-to-late 19th century that some, limited European immigration from mostly central and Eastern Europe, a good portion Jews from Central/Eastern European countries, including France religious, political discrimination, racism, state-sanctioned progroms in Czarist Russia. By then, though, the Ottoman Empire was in the throes of a deep centuries-long political, economic and imperial decline as their once large, massive empire in the Balkans had shrunk considerably to include parts of areas including modern/day Serbia, Croatia, Macedonia, parts of northern Greece, Kosovo, Bulgaria, Albania, and parts of southern Romania. Nearly 200 years before, Turks came very close and likely would’ve conquered Vienna in 1683 if not for Polish military intervention. The Ottoman Empire by the last two decades of the 19th century was scarcely industrialized, except for cities like Constantinople, their society and overall economy wasn’t massively embracing Western modernization and infrastructure.

 

[Saintman2884]

I will never care about being hypocritical. I smoke, i tell my son not to. The fact that I smoke, doesn't make that bad advice.

Us telling Israel to slow down, comes from a position of experience. They should listen.

Especially since we give them a few billion dollars each year.

In terms of geopolitical “morality” or ethics, being or acting hypocritical when you’re trying to lecture one nation on trying to behave correctly when you didn’t or haven’t, doesn’t add credibility to your arguments or sentiments. In fact, it often leads to the opposite where other interested, major parties just tune you out and see you as a discredited source.

 

[SamAndreas]

You do know that ... (snip)

You do know that any attempt to communicate with another is diminished if it begins with "you do know that"???

My second thought was who the heck were you addressing. It wasn't me.

 

[Saintman2884]

You do know that any attempt to communicate with another is diminished if it begins with "you do know that"???

My second thought was who the heck were you addressing. It wasn't me.

Yes, I was addressing you and I was explaining why the long, disturbed history and evil, irrational bigotry of antisemitism or anti-Jewish mindsets, groups, and individuals over the course of two millennia caused the rise of international Jewish Zionist groups in late 19th century. Also, many early Zionist leaders weren’t particularly religious, more “culturally Jewish”. Some were even atheists or agnostics, many held far-left political viewpoints or were originally radicalized Eastern/Central European Jews who became socialists, Communists, Trotskyites, a few even were anarchists.



Sam, since I have a lot of respect for you, I’ll put it to you on a meaningful, reasonable level: if you were a part of a long, unfairly discriminated and irrationally hated minority that is always being demonized for hundreds of reasons, be it religious, socio-economic, political or racial nationalist reasons. You get expelled from country to country, region to region, for centuries and your ancestors keep trying to fit in, keep to themselves, not cause any trouble, try to be good neighbors and community leaders, and maybe it’s works for a while but then someone invents or re-interprets new reasons to despise and loath Jews. You fight for God-given rights for equality, civility, freedom and somehow, you’re never quite seem to be viewed as truly equal and fully assimilated. You’re always at the mercy whenever some depression comes along or civil or political unrest comes along and some in the ruling class need a scapegoat, Jews aren’t too far down the list.

You try and try, your ancestors keep trying and trying to fit in but somehow, someway despite the best of intentions, you’re always seen with suspicion, prejudice or downright hatred from the majority population. At some point, there’s going to be someone who’ll say that’s it pointless, idiotic and shameful to think that after 2,000 years, one day, Jews worldwide won’t have to stop worrying about their personal safety, well-being, or happiness from would-be authoritarian/totalitarian leaders or idealogues, or Islamic fundamentalist leaders.

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

In terms of geopolitical “morality” or ethics, being or acting hypocritical when you’re trying to lecture one nation on trying to behave correctly when you didn’t or haven’t, doesn’t add credibility to your arguments or sentiments. In fact, it often leads to the opposite where other interested, major parties just tune you out and see you as a discredited source.

Well, Israel has made choices in the past month that has ensured that Israel will never be safe.

 

[Zack Lee]

Well, Israel has made choices in the past month that has ensured that Israel will never be safe.

Yea it’s not the children that died that’s the problem. It’s the ones who lived. There is a good chance that everyone will know of one of them one day.

A book I loved was Nelson Mandela’s “Long Wall to Freedom”. Two things stood out in that book to me. One was that he studied every war tactic, read all the great strategy books while he was in prison. He then assimilated a list of actions in order of severity that started with sabotage and ended with terrorism. “The rules of the engagement are determined by the oppressors “. He wasn’t above any of the actions but he would only take more drastic measures if the lessor ones didn’t work.


But much more astonishing than that was his attitude toward the oppressors after he was in power. “The oppressors were prisoners too. Prisoners of their own hate”. He did not alllow for any retaliation. That was a true miracle considering what they had put him through. He truly concentrated on the healing of the country and they would likely be in a much darker place these days had he not put his concentration there.

The energy you put out in the world comes back to you. Those who say there has never been peace in that part of the world will be correct, at least in any of our lifetimes

 

[Infoman]

I referenced Israel's intent for Gaza. Not Hamas'. You're replying to something I didn't infer.

Isreals' intent for Gaza is to remove it's terrorists murdering scum bags leaders... and leave... that's what they have indicated.... if that doesn't happen, we can discuss it then... I am talking about the reality of what has and is happening.

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

Isreals' intent for Gaza is to remove it's terrorists murdering scum bags leaders... and leave... that's what they have indicated.... if that doesn't happen, we can discuss it then... I am talking about the reality of what has and is happening.

Has Bibi actually said they plan to leave?

 

[Infoman]

Has Bibi actually said they plan to leave?

Has he said they plan to stay?

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

Has he said they plan to stay?

Well, he quoted a bible verse the other day that suggested he was going to kill every man, woman, child, donkey and goat in Gaza.

 

[Infoman]

Well, he quoted a bible verse the other day that suggested he was going to kill every man, woman, child, donkey and goat in Gaza.

It's a Bible verse - They are at war.... A war their Enemy considers "Holy"

Israel has no plan for Gaza after war ends, experts warn

Former intelligence officers tell BBC it is unclear how Hamas could be kept out after Israeli forces leave.

www.bbc.com

My point was - we know what the intent of Hamas is and was... As of now, the intent of Israel is wipe out Hamas and remove them permanently and forever from Gaza... after that... my assumption is that the Army leaves, unless they prove otherwise.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

Arrest made in one of the ongoing anti-Semitic threat campus cases

A 21-year-old Cornell University junior was charged Tuesday for making online threats to Jewish students at the Ivy League school, authorities said.

Patrick Dai, a junior at Cornell, faces a charge of posting threats to kill or injure another using interstate communications, federal prosecutors in the Northern District of New York said.


In a post in an online discussion board, prosecutors said, the student allegedly threatened to "shoot up" a campus building. In another post, he said he he would "stab" or "slit the throat" of Jewish men, and rape or throw off a cliff Jewish women he encounters on campus, according to the prosecutors.

He also said he would behead Jewish babies and threatened to "bring an assault rifle to campus and shoot all you" Jewish people, prosecutors said, attributing the words to Dai.

Cornell University student threatened to stab and rape Jewish students and ‘shoot up’ school, prosecutors say

The alleged threats alarmed students and focused more national attention on the rise in antisemitism and Islamophobia since the start of the Israel-Hamas war.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[DaveXA]

Has Bibi actually said they plan to leave?

I'll need to search for the articles, but I've seen multiple statements from Israeli officials stating they're not interested in staying in Gaza.

This morning there was an interview on CNN with an Israeli official Mark Regev (senior advisor to Bibi) who stated they wanted to clear northern Gaza of Hamas operatives and that eliminating Hamas will be better for the people of Gaza which implies that Gazans will return home after this war is over.

Now whether you believe him is a different question.

 

[livefromDC]

Arrest made in one of the ongoing anti-Semitic threat campus cases

Cornell University student threatened to stab and rape Jewish students and ‘shoot up’ school, prosecutors say

The alleged threats alarmed students and focused more national attention on the rise in antisemitism and Islamophobia since the start of the Israel-Hamas war.

www.nbcnews.com

Well, I'm glad this piece of work didn't get a chance to act on his remarks. I'm hoping this monster isn't representative of the prevailing thought on college campuses. It sure hasn't been my anecdotal experience. If I was wrong, I'm totally fine admitting it.

Cornell Student Arrested for Making Online Threats to Jewish Students on Campus

www.justice.gov

"Patrick Dai, age 21, a junior at Cornell University who is originally from Pittsford, New York, was arrested today on a federal criminal complaint charging him with posting threats to kill or injure another using interstate communications."

 

[Tapxe]

If you drop a 2000lb bomb in a refugee camp with the intent of killing your enemy leadership, full well knowing thousands live in the exact same space, is your intent only to kill a couple specific people?

If you are an enemy leader hiding in a refuge camp you are excused from culpability tho?

Point being Israel doesn't attack that refugee camp unless there is a military target there. Hamas is there because it gets that exact reaction you posted and then they win despite slaughtering innocent Israeli citizens a few weeks before as well as those refugees. This is how they divide and conquer other people.

This is how you wind up like a Palestinian being represented by brutal fanatics who would use your kids as human shield to advance their absolute control over you and your family. It's how you wind up being slaughtered at worship of another religion because you are an infidel.

So think carefully about who you are dealing with before you side with a brutal regime. AKA, don't eat the cheese.