Israel (now broader Mid East discussion) (11 Viewers)

[DaveXA]

If you drop a 2000lb bomb in a refugee camp with the intent of killing your enemy leadership, full well knowing thousands live in the exact same space, is your intent only to kill a couple specific people?

That's a hard question to answer without knowing all of the details. I want to wait a few days and see what the truth is about what happened.

I have a hard time believing Israel can't send in a strike team to take out their leadership without killing civilians. So, without knowing all of the details, I'm hesitant to support such a bombing.

 

[Infoman]

Which is exactly why Israel - while needing to respond in a forceful way - needs to go out of its way to demonstrate it follows strictly the rules of war. To show clearly they are different from Hamas. And right now, they are not creating that perception.

What perception? I haven’t been able to decipher what’s true and isn’t since this thing started. By the time I see or hear what happened most of the story ends up being debunked and unbunked and disproved and propagandized and partisanized until we learn some version of true events days or weeks later. And by then we’re on to the next story. A lot of perceptions on this war are based in preconceived notions. Sounds like a good way for terrorists to keep drawing support don’t it?

 

[not2rich]

That's a hard question to answer without knowing all of the details. I want to wait a few days and see what the truth is about what happened.

I have a hard time believing Israel can't send in a strike team to take out their leadership without killing civilians. So, without knowing all of the details, I'm hesitant to support such a bombing.

Remember when the US sent in strike teams to take out that Somali warlord in 1993?

It's really hard to conduct a special ops raid, much less in a refugee camp teeming with people who hate you. How are you going to get the strike team in without tipping the target? How are you going to get them out? It's not like there are going to be great helicopter landing areas in a refugee camp.

 

[not2rich]

What perception? I haven’t been able to decipher what’s true and isn’t since this thing started. By the time I see or hear what happened most of the story ends up being debunked and unbunked and disproved and propagandized and partisanized until we learn some version of true events days or weeks later. And by then we’re on to the next story. A lot of perceptions on this war are based in preconceived notions. Sounds like a good way for terrorists to keep drawing support don’t it?

Just look at some of the replies on the last few pages of this thread. Does it even matter what's true if you're losing the PR war?

 

[DaveXA]

Which is exactly why Israel - while needing to respond in a forceful way - needs to go out of its way to demonstrate it follows strictly the rules of war. To show clearly they are different from Hamas. And right now, they are not creating that perception.

Absolutely. They can't play by the rules of their enemies. If they do, the world will notice and stop supporting them. Bibi is running headlong into a situation they won't be able to get out of anytime soon.

 

[Infoman]

Just look at some of the replies on the last few pages of this thread. Does it even matter what's true if you're losing the PR war?

No and that was sort of my point…. Israel knows there is no way to look good and kill all of Hamas here. So what’s the point of PR….? Taxpe pointed this out earlier. Part of the Hamas plan is to keep Israel fighting and looking bad doing it. That’s why they use human shields, tunnels under hospitals, disinformation, etc. they have no way to beat them otherwise.

There’s no high ground here for Israel to stand on currently. And while they have wide ranging support by their allies with Oct 7 still fresh in their minds. They are doing what they think they need to do to eradicate Hamas before that window closes and the “perception” changes when the next tragedy befalls the planet.

 

[not2rich]

No and that was sort of my point…. Israel knows there is no way to look good and kill all of Hamas here. So what’s the point of PR….? Taxpe pointed this out earlier. Part of the Hamas plan is to keep Israel fighting and looking bad doing it. That’s why they use human shields, tunnels under hospitals, disinformation, etc. they have no way to beat them otherwise.

Because PR is important for international support. There might not be any way to look "good," but you can try to avoid looking "bad."

Everyone knows Hamas is using the Palestinians as human shields, but that doesn't mean you should just say "F' it" and have the attitude that you're going to kill everyone in Hamas regardless of how many civilians get killed in the process.

 

[Infoman]

Because PR is important for international support. There might not be any way to look "good," but you can try to avoid looking "bad."

Everyone knows Hamas is using the Palestinians as human shields, but that doesn't mean you should just say "F' it" and have the attitude that you're going to kill everyone in Hamas regardless of how many civilians get killed in the process.

We are 3 weeks from the initial images of the terror attacks inflicted on them, and we are already hearing calls for a ceasefire by some of the International Community.

They know the clock is ticking.

I said earlier I don’t agree with everything they do and how they are going about it. I’d prefer more Spec Ops incursions to hit HVTs. And less big arse heavies being dropped.

I understand the urgency and tactics. And I can differentiate between the terrorist coward aggressors and an Army that knows more is coming and they don’t have time to wait for permission or public blessings. They are hitting hard and fast before the people paying the bills pull back the reins.

 

[SaintInBucLand]

We are 3 weeks from the initial images of the terror attacks inflicted on them, and we are already hearing calls for a ceasefire by some of the International Community.

They know the clock is ticking.

I said earlier I don’t agree with everything they do and how they are going about it. I’d prefer more Spec Ops incursions to hit HVTs. And less big arse heavies being dropped.

I understand the urgency and tactics. And I can differentiate between the terrorist coward aggressors and an Army that knows more is coming and they don’t have time to wait for permission or public blessings. They are hitting hard and fast before the people paying the bills pull back the reins.

I honestly thought it would happen earlier. I was thinking 10 days or so. Those that are obviously anti-Semitic were going to be on the side of Hamas early on, they were the ones calling the first reports of the Hamas attacks propaganda. Many still believe the hospital 'attack' was done by the IDF, not all surprising seeing that many news agencies that reported it as such didn't seem to interested in making sure the correct information got out there. It's pretty easy to lose a PR war when most of the international press is against you.

 

[Heathen Saint]

Some people can’t differentiate intent. There’s a huge difference between premeditated murder with intent, and killing in defense or in heat of a situation. I realize both things end up with the tragic consequences of death. But if you can’t wrap your head around the difference then there’s not much to discuss.

In a perfect world killing another human being would not be justified in any way…. We don’t live in that world.

And who, exactly, knows this intent? I think i've heard about every argument under the sun to justify what Israel is doing now but one thing for sure is that nobody on this board understands the full scope or intent of Israel's plans for Gaza.

 

[Saintman2884]

They just need to assassinate those FSB agents. FAAFO

Dave, this choreographed modern-day, organized "pogrom" by FSB operatives and Russian government is just another in a long line of historical, convenient Russian anti-semitism used and promoted as a safety valve or diversion to prevent civil unrest dating back to late Middle Ages and Ivan the Terrible. For centuries, Russian Jews were forced to live on state-mandated, "pales of settlements", akin to later Native American reservations, had no legal, political or civil rights even until late in the 19th century when most other European Jewish communities had been at least accepted with legal and political equality. Most Russian Jews were forbidden to enter secondary or primary schools, trade schools, unions, guilds, they were subject to occasional organized communal attacks, or " pogroms" by Czarist or Russian Orthodox priests, they could be forcibly moved from region-to-region ala similar to Apartheid South Africa's policy of moving South African blacks onto different, interior homesteads, segregated, in the Transvaal and Orange Free State remote regions.

Even in the late 19th century, in some remote Russian/Ukrainian communities, Jews were sometimes put on mock, humiliating trials for allegedly kidnapping and murdering young Russian Orthodox children, a deranged accusation that had persisted since Middle Ages. Even during the Soviet era, even though Communist leaders like Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, and Zinoviev passed laws against anti-semitism, lingering, cultural tropes, bias and hatred against Soviet Jews still popped up over the country's 75-year existence and the "Refusenik" movement of the late 60's and 1970's. Stalin hated Jews and remarked to Roosevelt at the Yalta Conference that he believed they brought most of genocidal, extremely horrific anti-Jewish laws, marginalization out of German society, forced into ghettos, then liquidized and sent to the death camps in Poland, on themselves.

 

[Heathen Saint]

Indifference becomes intent when you stop targeting the enemy, and start to pull kids from their moms to behead them, live stream rapes to family members on Social media, and shoot surrendering grandmothers. That’s usually my line.

Where does your line stand on blowing up children into bits, the heads off of infants, turning cities into rubble where the dead put forth a stench so terrible it is almost uninhabitable?

How about massacring civilians when bombing refugee camps..churches..even evacuation routes?

Where's that line?

 

[Infoman]

And who, exactly, knows this intent? I think i've heard about every argument under the sun to justify what Israel is doing now but one thing for sure is that nobody on this board understands the full scope or intent of Israel's plans for Gaza.

Dude get real. When you march into Israel and shoot up a concert, rape and live stream it, kill elderly people and run back to the safety of human shields…. The intent is clear. You’re a terrorist piece of work that wants to start a war.

And to be clear I’m talking about Hamas. Not the people of Palestine that don’t support, shelter, or share their views on the extermination the of Jews.

For now, I’m going assume Israel wants nothing to do with Gaza (and thus has no intent) once Hamas is removed and destroyed. Which is why Hamas can’t leave the human shield shelter of Gaza. If all of Hamas was standing out in the Israel desert that’s where the bombs would be dropping…. And no innocent Palestinians would be getting killed. I’m fairly certain of that.

 

[Heathen Saint]

Dude get real. When you march into Israel and shoot up a concert, rape and live stream it, kill elderly people and run back to the safety of human shields…. The intent is clear. You’re a terrorist piece of work that wants to start a war.

I referenced Israel's intent for Gaza. Not Hamas'. You're replying to something I didn't infer.

 

[Saintman2884]

Anti-Zionism is not Anti-Semitic. The first people on Earth who reacted negatively to the idea of Zionism were Jews. Jews were the first people who heard about it, so of course the topic was a Jewish topic at first. About half of Jews didn't and don't like the idea of Zionism.

Part and parcel with the idea of Zionism are high Priests and Temple ritual. An authority I don't want to conform to. Hell NO to that idea. I like my Judaism to be modern, and Templeless. The Temple is in ruins. We've evolved beyond that for 2,000 years

NO priests! We got along fine without Temple priests, and Temple ritual for 2,000 years. I don't recognize a religious authority centered in Israel. HELL NO !!! We've had 2,000 years of no centralized authority.


Israeli overly Orthodox, overly frum, conservative bozos don't get to rule over me in America. HELL NO !!!

That might explain a lot to someone who hasn't thought these Zionist ramifications through. Israel is not what it seems. It's not my Jewish homeland. The USA is my Jewish homeland.

You do know that political Zionism also got started due to 2,000 years of religious, cultural, political anti-Jewish bigotry, hatred, racism, and overt discrimination and pseudo-scientific Social Darwinist beliefs that Jews were racial, genetic losers in history. How about NO country, NO acceptance, NO TOLERANCE and accusations from non-Jews, Catholics, Vatican, Islamic theologians, rulers, monarchs that you were cursed for killing Christ, that you kidnapped Christian children and drained their blood for matzah bread, that they ran a secret, clandestine worldwide banking and political government/cabal, in Middle Ages, they accused Jews of spreading bubonic plague, Jews were forbidden to enter or officially live in England from early 13th century till 1650's, the Dreyfuss Affair in France from 1894-1906, European Jews being treated like second-class citizens even though legally, they had supposedly legal/civil rights under the law..

Zionist leaders had the audacity to tell Jews in ME, United States, and Europe that for over 2,000 years that when the rubber hit the roads, whenever their was an economic depression, civil or political unrest, natural disaster, political upheaval Jews always tended to be convenient scapegoats and frankly, most of those people living in those same countries didnt give a sheet about you or your family. They were guilty of murdering Jesus Christ, being told that God had abandoned them by early Christian writers and leaders, and that they were an eternally rootless people who could never be relied upon to be honest, patriotic citizens of __________ country, or nation.

Were they wrong, Sam? Look at all the atrocities over the course of 2,000 years over multiple continents and tell them they’re wrong.