Israel (now broader Mid East discussion) (5 Viewers)

[baarbogast]

 

[baarbogast]

 

[baarbogast]

 

[baarbogast]

I have to admit, until a couple days ago I had never heard of Coates. I forgot about Trevor Noah completely.

 

[HoustonSaint68]

The talking past one another over the last couple of pages makes clear why this animus has gone on for thousands of years.

And presumably those talking past one another here on a football website aren't burdened by the anger of someone personally known to them who has been killed, bloodied or deeply harmed by the "other" side.

Humans really are pretty miserable creatures sometimes. Where are the Nelson Mandelas, the Desmond Tutus, the Abraham Lincolns? Nowhere to be found in the social media age, I'm afraid.

 

[DaveXA]

The talking past one another over the last couple of pages makes clear why this animus has gone on for thousands of years.

It's the nature of the beast unfortunately. There aren't any winners in this conflict. And while 10/7 is a significant day in history, this has gone on for hundreds if not thousands of years. They all have valid grievances. They've been talking past each other for a long, long time.

And presumably those talking past one another here on a football website aren't burdened by the anger of someone personally known to them who has been killed, bloodied or deeply harmed by the "other" side.

I actually have friends from both sides of the conflict who have lost family members in the conflict. There's definitely anger and sadness there. They all bear some responsibility for what's happening.

Humans really are pretty miserable creatures sometimes. Where are the Nelson Mandelas, the Desmond Tutus, the Abraham Lincolns? Nowhere to be found in the social media age, I'm afraid.

There are those kind of people out there. But they're being drowned out by all of the propaganda noise on social media. Social media is as much a conduit for propaganda as it is for a voice of reason.

 

[Heathen Saint]

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

Sure. It’s all subjective at some point.

In my eyes, the point I’m trying to make and I believe the quoted tweet was trying to make is that it’s obvious that the west uses one set of standards for themselves, and a completely different one for others.

Just as America celebrated the decision of the ICC to indict Putin, but announced they’d go after the same ICC that indicted Netanyahu for similar crimes.

It’s the hypocrisy that I’m highlighting.

Out of curiosity, what do you expect Israel to do? Just continue to tolerate attacks and deaths and do nothing?

No. But just as the professor of Holocaust studies pointed out in the video, this turned from a target Hamas campaign to a raze Gaza to the ground and occupy it, and Lebanon, and Syria…in a year.

There is such thing as gross overreach. And to use October 7th as a reason to commit atrocities on the people living in Gaza is obviously, clearly, a war crime.

Israel has committed them consistently in the last year. Do you think that isn’t reality?

Like many, you seem to forget what started all of this. Many have forgotten the images of dead Jewish men, women, and children, lying bloodied on the streets in Israel.

I'm curious as to why you think that I've forgotten this.

As terrible as that day was, the irony here is that many seem to care about civilians being harmed on one day, yet don’t when other civilians are harmed 365 days after.

My position is not one of “sides”. It’s of pointing out the criminality of whichever group, whether it be Hamas, or IDF, or Hezbollah, or the US - which commits them.

Sadly, I do believe that cognitive dissonance is clearly at play here - the western media narrative using Israeli propaganda to excuse Israel sniping toddlers in the head, to give one of hundreds of examples of war crimes.

I think you like I care about and are sickened by seeing innocent people killed on October 7th. I'd assume you're also sickened about those killed on every day after in Gaza by Israel.

Just yesterday, images came out of the IDF having bombed a tent city of unhoused people behind a major hospital in Gaza. There are videos of a father and his little girl struggling as they die in the flames.

Surely images such as this hurt everyone to see.

Many ignore that the Oct. 7-8 2023 attack wasn't a one-and-done, and there's evidence more attacks were planned.

Hamas, Hezbollah, et al want to exterminate Jews and wipe out Israel off the map. Why wouldn't/shouldn't Israel beat them to the punch?

I have no problem with a country beating another to the punch if there’s evidence they wanted to commit war crimes like killing civilians.

To be clear, would you be fine if it were Hamas attacking Israel if it were found that Israel had premeditated attacks on Palestinians in Gaza?

Just want to make sure we’re on the same page.

 

[baarbogast]

 

[Heathen Saint]

Even if you believe the death toll from the Gaza Health Ministry which is around 42000, that is a far cry from genocide. The mass slaughter is not happening. surely, you can see the foolishness of calling this genocide.

I'm really trying to have a productive conversation here.

But you seem to just be repeating "it's not genocide" without delving into the reasons why you think this.

In a legal sense, the term genocide refers to certain acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.

A group doesn't have to put this in bold or fine print for it to be proven that it is the case. It doesn't have to be written anywhere to prove intent.

And therein lies the challenge - proving that Israel had/has genocidal intent in this conflict. I'd argue, with quite a lot of what I think is sound evidence, that there is more
than enough proof. From statements of the Israeli government, to captured video of IDF leaders saying this is what they want to do, to video members of the IDF laughing and joking
as they snipe or blow up children...the list really does just "go on".

I really don't know, after hundreds of articles of evidence, how the proof of intent could be any more solid.

But some still think that if they didn't outright 'say' it in their outward facing governmental position, there is no proof of intent.

That'd be like saying if the 1988 Hamas charter didn't exist, there'd be no proof that Hamas was/is genocidal in its intent to destroy Israel.

 

[Heathen Saint]

Also, I think one of the points I've tried to make all along which I haven't really heard any good retort to (thus far) is:

Even if Hamas tunnels exist, does that justify destroying all homes of all Palestinian people in Gaza?
Even if some Hamas members use civilians as human shields, does that justify slaughtering Palestinian civilians at will?

A simple thought experiment is..answer the questions above, then replace 'Hamas' above with 'IDF' and 'Palestinian' with 'Israeli' see if you're able to give the same answer.

If you aren't, I believe there's a big problem.

Hopefully we can all agree on basic history, at least? In order to see that there is evidence that the US has supported genocidal campaigns in other countries before, so there'd be reason to be suspicious...

I mean, shoot...the US government supported the Khmer Rouge in their genocide of millions of Cambodian people in the 70's.

I'm sure big wigs disparaged the student protestors in the 70's as they do now.

 

[Formermember]

I'm really trying to have a productive conversation here.

But you seem to just be repeating "it's not genocide" without delving into the reasons why you think this.

In a legal sense, the term genocide refers to certain acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.

A group doesn't have to put this in bold or fine print for it to be proven that it is the case. It doesn't have to be written anywhere to prove intent.

And therein lies the challenge - proving that Israel had/has genocidal intent in this conflict. I'd argue, with quite a lot of what I think is sound evidence, that there is more
than enough proof. From statements of the Israeli government, to captured video of IDF leaders saying this is what they want to do, to video members of the IDF laughing and joking
as they snipe or blow up children...the list really does just "go on".

I really don't know, after hundreds of articles of evidence, how the proof of intent could be any more solid.

But some still think that if they didn't outright 'say' it in their outward facing governmental position, there is no proof of intent.

That'd be like saying if the 1988 Hamas charter didn't exist, there'd be no proof that Hamas was/is genocidal in its intent to destroy Israel.

If you're saying that Israel wants to destroy/obliterate Hamas and that is the genocide you refer, then I agree. They do want to eliminate Hamas which is a terrorist organization. Hamas is not an ethnic, racial or religious group. They are a terrorist organization at war with Israel.

 

[Formermember]

Also, I think one of the points I've tried to make all along which I haven't really heard any good retort to (thus far) is:

Even if Hamas tunnels exist, does that justify destroying all homes of all Palestinian people in Gaza?
Even if some Hamas members use civilians as human shields, does that justify slaughtering Palestinian civilians at will?

A simple thought experiment is..answer the questions above, then replace 'Hamas' above with 'IDF' and 'Palestinian' with 'Israeli' see if you're able to give the same answer.

If you aren't, I believe there's a big problem.

Hopefully we can all agree on basic history, at least? In order to see that there is evidence that the US has supported genocidal campaigns in other countries before, so there'd be reason to be suspicious...

I mean, shoot...the US government supported the Khmer Rouge in their genocide of millions of Cambodian people in the 70's.

I'm sure big wigs disparaged the student protestors in the 70's as they do now.

The point is that Hamas has built those tunnels and have invaded Israel.
Also, and a very big point here, the Khmer Rouge were definitely not supported by our government. they were supported by China, Mao Zedong, and North Vietnam. Student protests are fine but know who you are supporting. This Country as Jeffersonians began as protesters.

 

[Formermember]

The talking past one another over the last couple of pages makes clear why this animus has gone on for thousands of years.

And presumably those talking past one another here on a football website aren't burdened by the anger of someone personally known to them who has been killed, bloodied or deeply harmed by the "other" side.

Humans really are pretty miserable creatures sometimes. Where are the Nelson Mandelas, the Desmond Tutus, the Abraham Lincolns? Nowhere to be found in the social media age, I'm afraid.

Dang it; I thought is was civil discussion

 

[HoustonSaint68]

Dang it; I thought is was civil discussion

I didn't say it was uncivil, I said the posts were talking past one another. Two different things.

 

[Heathen Saint]

Also re: the “human shields” argument. Here are ways Israel uses Palestinians in this way (just a few examples):



Full article:

How Israel’s Army Uses Palestinians as Human Shields in Gaza

Israeli soldiers and Palestinian former detainees say troops have regularly forced captured Gazans to carry out life-threatening tasks, including inside Hamas tunnels.

www.nytimes.com