It appears the Kellen Moore thing is shaky (15 Viewers)

[faceman]

Rock, paper, scissors is a great analogy.

Defenses are being built to stop those passing teams. Underhill has already pointed it out but the big interior linebackers like Brandon Spikes don't really exist anymore. Massive amounts of money are being spent on pass rushing DE's and CB's. Teams spend more time in nickel so their nickelback's have gotten a whole lot better while their 3rd and 4th linebackers have gotten worse. Mobile QB's have introduced another dimension they have to consider.

Right now all these teams are heavily invested in passing and stopping it. It'll take a while for them to re-tool if they even want to. We kind of have a blank slate developing over the next few years and our new coach is the ideal candidate to get ahead of the curve.

Mike D. has been saying the same for awhile on WWL. Mark Schlereth is a guest every Tuesday. There is no
bigger fan of the run game that Scherleth. Lb'ers now are drafted for coverage ability. Both believe the RB is
making a small comeback. Schlereth said If I'm looking at a 230Lb Lb'er I'm going to see how he feels taking
on a pulling guard.

 

[HogsNSaints]

I think people are also misconstruing my pessimism. I’m not on a train of thought that the Saints are doomed to be bad for a decade. We have literally seen this franchise go from cellar dweller to NFC CG appearance in one offseason. NFL fortune can turn on a dime.

I just think we should feel like this is the floor and it’s bad right now when looking strictly at 2025. I think there’s plenty of pathways to rebuild a strong roster with a couple good drafts (I’d like to stockpile picks for some youth), and good FA classes/allowing our older vets to go elsewhere for a final run. I just think anyone thinking a coach is going to push this team into a contender in 2025 is going to be very wrong.

 

[St. Widge]

It's crazy that only 4 other teams considered him as a FA. Texans offered him $11 million, Bears and Chargers considered him but went with other far inferior directions, and the Ravens considered him and went with Derrick Henry.

Top WR's are making $30-$40 million, the best RB's are fighting for $13-16 million. The fact that Barkley had to fight for $13 million is crazy.

The Moneyball aspect of this is insanely interesting. The last 2 years the NFC Super Bowl team featured elite RB play with efficient but average QB play. Everyone is chasing the elite QB/WR duo but that's almost $100 million between two players when you can spend $15 million on an elite RB and invest the difference in the rest of the team.

But essentially the same Philly team got to the Super Bowl without an elite RB and with the same QB because they have an elite OL and DL.

 

[greatshow25]

These two are exactly what I am talking about, though. Every coach (that we’d want anyway) would prefer to be the #1 in a good spot vs the #2 in a great spot. KK & Brady are in really good positions, but a good opportunity to be a HC would trump a great OC job. Is it not reflective that their great OC jobs feel like the thing to keep over the opportunity to be the Saints HC? And again, I am not saying “it’s for sure” bad - I am only pointing to what we can all see from the outside looking in, which appears to make a lot of people on this board angry.

I disagree with you on KK though he wasn't going to take a HC this year no matter who offered unless Andy retires and the Chiefs call. He was asked toward the end of the season about being a head coach again and he was like yeah one day I will and practically eluded to staying to coach Daniels. KK may only have one more shot at HC so he is going to be more selective. He also has to rebuild his brand after the Cardinals failure. This happens all the time with coordinators. Ben Johnson could of had his choice of any job the last 2 years and he chose to stay in Detroit, but I think he wanted the Chicago job last year but they didn't fire the coach. I'm sure Carolina and Washington felt the same after the number 1 option said no. I remember Carolina was talking about Ben wanting 15 million per and were willing to pay it. Sometimes these coaches get more money to stay as well look at Coen in Tampa before he took the Jags job. Look turned down the Pats because he knew wasn't his job. So it is bad here but it is a ton of reasons why coaches pull there name.

 

[JackDiesel]

I would. Defensively, our front 7 can't stop the run. Our pass defense isn't much better and we may be losing Adebo. 1 of our safety positions are wide open and struggled. Offensively our interior Oline is leaky and often injured. Our WR's are giant question mark due to injuries with Olave and Shaheed. We have no QB that can consistently put the offense on their arm with success, and our biggest star is 30 years old by start of next season which is where RB's typically have a big fall off in performance or are often injured.

We also have this giant, massive injury issue that hasn't been figured out yet.

If I'm being honest, a .500 season is doing good. Of course, that really means nothing. We have several contracts, trades, free agency and draft to go through so things could look very different come May.

I think Joe Woods had a lot to do with our defensive struggles. The Browns had a good on paper defense that struggled against the run too. Not a surprise that it carried over to our defense. Combined with the fact that Allen ran a powder puff TC and practices helped lead to more missed tackles, bad angles and I bet that's a part of the injury issues we have. Our defensive line has been let down by absolutely abysmal coaching that Allen handpicked. Players celebrated Grantham leaving. Everyone took a step back last year, we certainly have areas we can improve but what we desperately need is proper coaching. I think Adebo should be a doable re-sign, I don't think Howden is as bad as he looked at times this year although we certainly need to add more at that position, and our defensive line has talent that needs proper coaching but NT is a need.

Our offensive line only has 1 true hole, LG. Ruiz could be upgraded but that's more of a want than a need. We have two young tackles that excel in run blocking. We have 3 WR's that can play that Y and Z spots, yes we need an X WR that can make contested catches and we could use that at TE as well. RB is ugly, Kamara is going to be 30, Miller can't stay healthy or learn the playbook, Mims is a minimal role player, Williams is an easy cut and I think CEH was a street FA we signed to help us make it through the season. A QB that can carry the offense is always a want but you can still be an effective offense without one.

If we can move towards a run based offense that reduces the importance of an QB, draft well, clear enough cap to sign a LG, Adebo and I'd try to re-sign Young who stepped up when Grantham left. Then I think there is a path forward to success.

 

[BBarnes]

I wouldn't be surprised if Moore wins the South in his first season. There's no juggernaut within the division.

And definitely not littered with good head coaches. We may not be a SB contender all that quickly, but he’ll win the south in the first two years. If he has true potential to be a good head coach.

 

[Steve in Colorado]

I'm honestly surprised Kellen Moore is projected to accept this job. He just strikes me as a behind the scenes kind of coach who has a young family where time with them is very important to him.

These HC positions demand crazy hours, especially this one considering the state of the franchise. It just doesn't seem to be a fit, but what the heck do I know. I hope he's an amazing HC.

In full transparency, I was rooting for Anthony Weaver or even Kafka, if anything because of their personalities and they both strike me as coming in with a firm plan and philosophy.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

I think Joe Woods had a lot to do with our defensive struggles. The Browns had a good on paper defense that struggled against the run too. Not a surprise that it carried over to our defense. Combined with the fact that Allen ran a powder puff TC and practices helped lead to more missed tackles, bad angles and I bet that's a part of the injury issues we have. Our defensive line has been let down by absolutely abysmal coaching that Allen handpicked. Players celebrated Grantham leaving. Everyone took a step back last year, we certainly have areas we can improve but what we desperately need is proper coaching. I think Adebo should be a doable re-sign, I don't think Howden is as bad as he looked at times this year although we certainly need to add more at that position, and our defensive line has talent that needs proper coaching but NT is a need.

Our offensive line only has 1 true hole, LG. Ruiz could be upgraded but that's more of a want than a need. We have two young tackles that excel in run blocking. We have 3 WR's that can play that Y and Z spots, yes we need an X WR that can make contested catches and we could use that at TE as well. RB is ugly, Kamara is going to be 30, Miller can't stay healthy or learn the playbook, Mims is a minimal role player, Williams is an easy cut and I think CEH was a street FA we signed to help us make it through the season. A QB that can carry the offense is always a want but you can still be an effective offense without one.

If we can move towards a run based offense that reduces the importance of an QB, draft well, clear enough cap to sign a LG, Adebo and I'd try to re-sign Young who stepped up when Grantham left. Then I think there is a path forward to success.

The bolded red isn't true at all. Here's a quote from Mathieu that counters it

Again, Mathieu acknowledged multiple times that injuries have played a huge role in that, especially this year. And Mathieu said the Saints’ training camp was more intense this summer before those injuries started to become an issue again. So you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

He later went on to acknowledge that once the season started we went back primarly to walk-throughs and that's what was potentially a result of questionable angles in tackling etc. He did say something else in that article along the lines of play-calling, w/ woods as DC.

And when it came to the Saints’ epic third-down woes, Mathieu said, “It’s a combination of executing – I think at some point you have to execute whatever play call comes in. But throughout the course of the week, we knew that they were gonna run mesh routes or crossers. But we don’t call plays to necessarily defend that.”

We were so down on Allen, we didn't take into account where the drop-off would come when we lost him. It came in the playcalling. Once Joe Woods took over our turnovers went down. He wasn't the playcaller Allen was (Allen was voted #1 defensive playcaller in 2023) and that's where we took the biggest hit. The one thing that had been keeping the defense afloat is the # of turnovers we'd been getting. The Safeties in particular were getting 1 INT a game on average, that's a result of play-calling. It's funny because Matthew complained that Allen had him doing more baby sitting than he liked, and was elated when Woods took over, but then he also didn't get another INT the rest of the season (some of it was on him w/ drops)

 

[JackDiesel]

The bolded red isn't true at all. Here's a quote from Mathieu that counters it

He later went on to acknowledge that once the season started we went back primarly to walk-throughs and that's what was potentially a result of questionable angles in tackling etc. He did say something else in that article along the lines of play-calling, w/ woods as DC.

We were so down on Allen, we didn't take into account where the drop-off would come when we lost him. It came in the playcalling. Once Joe Woods took over our turnovers went down. He wasn't the playcaller Allen was (Allen was voted #1 defensive playcaller in 2023) and that's where we took the biggest hit. The one thing that had been keeping the defense afloat is the # of turnovers we'd been getting. The Safeties in particular were getting 1 INT a game on average, that's a result of play-calling. It's funny because Matthew complained that Allen had him doing more baby sitting than he liked, and was elated when Woods took over, but then he also didn't get another INT the rest of the season (some of it was on him w/ drops)

He ran a better TC this year but the first 2 years weren't intense at all which is why Mathieu even made a note of it. 1 out of 3 TC's were ran properly is a fail in my book. Then he failed to carryover that intensity into practice this year and didn't even force the team to stretch.

I agree that Joe Woods was a massive problem with our defense and most people remember the end of the year when he was coaching. I think he made our defensive problems way worse than they actually were.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

He ran a better TC this year but the first 2 years weren't intense at all which is why Mathieu even made a note of it. 1 out of 3 TC's were ran properly is a fail in my book. Then he failed to carryover that intensity into practice this year and didn't even force the team to stretch.

I agree that Joe Woods was a massive problem with our defense and most people remember the end of the year when he was coaching. I think he made our defensive problems way worse than they actually were.

For me, it had something to do w/ Allen's philosophy. When we hired him, and I did research on his time w/ Raiders... I noted that he preferred veteran teams. Most of his starters were guys w/ skins on the wall. When the defense was young (2017-2021), it challenged him more, and we built some good defenses, but after a while he went back into his natural habitat and seemed reticent about having young guys at certain positions.

It eventually lead to his downfall because one reason you'd run light camps is to protect your veteran players from injury.

It's just another example of Allen not evolving as a HC despite having the opportunity. It's no doubt the guy is a great FB coach, but as a HC there was so much room for improvement and he simply took none of the right steps. So I think it's obvious, if it wasn't clear before.......he's a great option as a DC...no one should hire him as a HC ever again.

 

[muddbug2]

The margin separating good teams from average or even bad teams is a lot thinner than people realize.

IMO this the truest statement in this thread.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

Also, just reading between the lines.

If this thread is accurate, and there were concerns about his ability to lead...if that's a red flag, it's a subtle admission that they are trying to avoid an obvious issue that Dennis Allen had. Which would vindicate Amy Trask when she said "Allen's leadership, if you want to call it that.

Does anyone remember that story that came out of a Former Raiders Employee who was not a fan of Dennis Allen?

Amy Trask was her name.https://saintswire.usatoday.com/2022/02/10/saints-hire-dennis-allen-raiders-amy-trask-reaction-response/I started thinking to myself, it's not the coaching that's bad...it's the LEADERSHIP. Then Boom, i remember this article and found the subsequent quoteThe...

saintsreport.com

 

[Scorpius the Allfather]

He sure led Boise St. to a 50-3 record with him as a starting QB. A guy who is not a leader of young men, does not do that.

Sean Payton was terrible in college as a QB. Doesn't mean he wouldn't be a great HC.

 

[HoustonGold]

We have been told to trust the process. I’m hoping we got our guy.

 

[Scorpius the Allfather]

This isn’t the sense I’m getting. Moore cannot be hired officially until after the Super Bowl. He could still back away just as the team could pivot. But the tea leaves are reading Moore.

Now, there are some things that have happened that have contributed to perceptions about the team. Some things have been falsely reported/misreported like the Glenn stuff. And while those things are untrue the organization isn’t going to go out and dispel those rumors because 1.) it’s not their style and 2.) they do not care about outside chatter. Of course, there’s a downside to it because all of it gets conflated with other things that have transpired are true. And ultimately, it doesn’t place the organization in the best light. That being said, not every coach that has backed out has done so because they think ill of the organization. Some of it is TRULY about self-preservation.

I agree with the overarching point that it would tell us something. But…Rizzi, if hired, already had plans to make several changes to the coaching staff. And if Kubiak was still around, he’d likely be released. Same for some other coaches. Darren has plotted making several changes not only to the coaching staff but also to the way business is conducted throughout the organization.

Underhill has an article out and since I'm not a member, I can't read it, but the title said something like Rizzi has a unique plan if he's hired. Any ideas on that?