Jeff Duncan: Inside the Saints Culture Issues (1 Viewer)

[Mr. Sparkle]

Let's not get too nostalgic. As Duncan points out, Payton hit a similar lull and had similar locker room issues in '14, '15 and '16, going 7-9 each year for three years. When the Saints then opened the '17 season 0-2, the calls for Payton's head were loud and widespread.

I was told by a person socially friendly with Saints' execs that the issue was essentially one of veteran Payton loyalists undercutting Allen when things weren't going well. Not open rebellion, but a kind of locker room clique of bad mouthing and "back-in-the-daying." Names that got mentioned as being malcontents (at least from front office's view) were Thomas, Graham, Winston and at times Kamara, Jordan and Lattimore. This was seen as having a bad effect on younger players and setting a tone that the old-guard was kind of above the rules.

This problem is exactly why many organizations clean house when there is a leadership change.

And why they goofed 2 years ago by ever trying to keep "Sean Payton's Saints" together without Sean Payton. DA was, is, and always will be the substitute teacher with all the respect that role implies.

I wish Loomis luck selling the fanbase on the idea that Kamara, Jordan, and Lattimore suddenly became locker room cancers.

 

[MarylandWHODAT]

Bosses versus leaders. It's so simple, it's hard. I've stated in numerous posts about this. The Saints are riddled with bosses but not enough leaders.

Bosses say "I", take credit, micromanage, criticize, blames others, direct and speaks more.

Leaders say "WE", give credit, delegate, encourages, coaches, takes responsibility and listen.

Culture and the way an organization runs, be it filled with millionaire alpha's or employee's, starts at the top and then works its way through the organization. If people do not buy in, a leader will say, what do we need to do better to win or succeed? The Saints and other toxic area's say, "time to rid the naysayers" and that is destined to fail.

The Saints need an overhaul, top to bottom. The Sean Payton era is over and this current executive group seem to not want to lose it, even in the face of it declining and losing. Games and people.

 

[TenTwo]

Let's not get too nostalgic. As Duncan points out, Payton hit a similar lull and had similar locker room issues in '14, '15 and '16, going 7-9 each year for three years. When the Saints then opened the '17 season 0-2, the calls for Payton's head were loud and widespread.

I was told by a person socially friendly with Saints' execs that the issue was essentially one of veteran Payton loyalists undercutting Allen when things weren't going well. Not open rebellion, but a kind of locker room clique of bad mouthing and "back-in-the-daying." Names that got mentioned as being malcontents (at least from front office's view) were Thomas, Graham, Winston and at times Kamara, Jordan and Lattimore. This was seen as having a bad effect on younger players and setting a tone that the old-guard was kind of above the rules.

This problem is exactly why many organizations clean house when there is a leadership change.

I feel like I disagree with the overall message, but I also think this is a really good post. Thanks for sharing. Interesting perspective. I am sure that is true, but my question is "But, why?"

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

But it begs the question:
“Does ML see as a HC that can win a Super Bowl”?

ML saw a rookie HC, get us to the NFCCG against the greatest of odds. That instills confidence in that HC bc he showed he can handle adversity.

couldn’t cook a turkey and maybe that was a problem?!?! Maybe came in thinking that this would be easy bc he slid into a situation where he had familiarity?!?? I don’t think has handled adversity well. In fact, I think he has handled every situation almost as poorly as one can handle it. So, what is the expectation that ML has for ? I’m sure even ML thought this would be a case where would be a seamless hire bc it should have been. We have a HC that has openly said on numerous occasions that he’s still trying to figure it out. If football is a game of inches, equate that to terms of coaching. Every year where goals are not met, is a wasted year. The ticker is at 2 years now.

Might be more expectation than reality. Payton's last year was 9-8. DA's 2nd year resulted in 9-8, and until the final 6-7 weeks of this year both suffered form the same issue....poor QB play.

At the very least, you should see what you can get out of Allen and this team in 2024 if that continued success at QB carries over. Just need to make a few tweaks.

A more accountable coach on Offense (Gruden)
Find a speed rusher to compliment Granderson (FA)
Continue shoring up the OL(draft T) and resign Peat to play LT
Find a way to develop Penning and get him on the field (pref Guard)
Form a new nucleus 2016-2017 holdovers are washed outside of Kamara (though something at Allen's end of season conference makes me think he's ready to move on)

 

[jahsoul357]

And why they goofed 2 years ago by ever trying to keep "Sean Payton's Saints" together without Sean Payton. DA was, is, and always will be the substitute teacher with all the respect that role implies.

I wish Loomis luck selling the fanbase on the idea that Kamara, Jordan, and Lattimore suddenly became locker room cancers.

Wow@the bolded, especially in a season where Kamara's leadership was highlighted. @new city champ gave us an interesting viewpoint but it begs to question, what culture were the trying to maintain and do they really understand what culture is? It sounds like the brass wanted to maintain aura of culture without the work to maintain it. If Jimmy and Cam talks about how thing was done to build the culture (especially Cam, as he has been through the peaks and valleys), then I would listen. But again, just speculating because we are all on the outside looking in.

Might be more expectation than reality. Payton's last year was 9-8. DA's 2nd year resulted in 9-8, and until the final 6-7 weeks of this year both suffered form the same issue....poor QB play.

Are you sure you are remember 2021 correctly?

 

[Elvis]

I find it strange that these players have been doing the sames things to prepare for games year after year and are only now choosing to stop doing those things. What brings that level of apathy to a locker room full of alphas? Of course that is a hypothetical question. Most people have worked in a place where leadership changes mess with peoples desire to work hard, good and bad. I think people naturally follow great leaders and work hard for them. But they also check out when a bad leader comes in and isn't credible. DA reeks of that latter type of leader that lacks credibility because he speaks in cliches and without any passion while also not having any real answers to obvious problem. The players that fractured him were probably some of the MOST competitive on the team and the most effected by this lack of leadership. People don't start acting out when they don't care, the acting out itself is warning sign to address things that clearly wern't being addressed.

 

[Rouxble]

The weird thing about this is when we lost to Atlanta, Karama was the vocal one publicly, as he talked about the lack of identity, so is he the ring leader of the "splinter?"

Hard to know for sure, but one thing that sticks out to me is that he listed who was putting in the work and indirectly called out who wasn’t. That makes me think he was part of the crew that was still on board, he kept repeating that he would continue to prepare himself for game day like he has done since he entered the league. It seems the part that splintered off was the unnamed group that wasn’t putting in the hours to be successful.

 

[Saint Spud]

Wow@the bolded, especially in a season where Kamara's leadership was highlighted. @new city champ gave us an interesting viewpoint but it begs to question, what culture were the trying to maintain and do they really understand what culture is? It sounds like the brass wanted to maintain aura of culture without the work to maintain it. If Jimmy and Cam talks about how thing was done to build the culture (especially Cam, as he has been through the peaks and valleys), then I would listen. But again, just speculating because we are all on the outside looking in.


Are you sure you are remember 2021 correctly?

All this.

If they’re undercutting DA because he’s not holding players accountable, then maybe DA is the one who needs to look in the mirror. Payton was notorious for attention to detail. Even the article points out that Strief confronted Payton about his own accountability slipping, and Payton had to refocus.

But…that’s the difference. Payton refocused. He didn’t throw Strief under the bus.

 

[efil4stnias]

My boss is not a good leader at all. I work hard because I am paid to work hard. I take personal responsibility for my work ethic and performance. Players should do the same.

while i agree to an extent, if your boss instructs you to do something, in a specific manner in which to do it, and it doesnt work, repeatedly, then what?

Just as employees, players are as good as you make them. If you put your top salesman in a management position and manager in a sales position, chances are its not going to work well. Do you continue to try this until your fired or change it up?

Leadership matters. Ill never forget my CO in the Army say " i will never ask you to do something that i wouldnt do myself" - that has stuck with me since 1990.

 

[Rouxble]

I find it strange that these players have been doing the sames things to prepare for games year after year and are only now choosing to stop doing those things. What brings that level of apathy to a locker room full of alphas? Of course that is a hypothetical question. Most people have worked in a place where leadership changes mess with peoples desire to work hard, good and bad. I think people naturally follow great leaders and work hard for them. But they also check out when a bad leader comes in and isn't credible. DA reeks of that latter type of leader that lacks credibility because he speaks in cliches and without any passion while also not having any real answers to obvious problem. The players that fractured him were probably some of the MOST competitive on the team and the most effected by this lack of leadership. People don't start acting out when they don't care, the acting out itself is warning sign to address things that clearly wern't being addressed.

Who said it was veteran players that have been preparing for years? My suspicion would instead be that mostly younger players were the ones who weren’t putting in the work required to be successful.

 

[whodatbe]

You know what I do to. My boss is great but I have a construction manager for some reason that doesn’t like me. I do my job, a good job. All the agencies like me, my actual boss likes me.

There is a reason this guy can’t stand me, I see through ALL of his BS. He’s a terrible CM, has no idea what he’s doing. I see it all and he hates it. He’s always saying he wishes his whole crew was really young. He complained to my boss about me a few times in which they’re actually friends but I was backed by my boss. No matter what I do it’s not good enough.

Sooooo….what I did was extend my vacation over Christmas by a week and let them live a week without me. Contractor and client were shut down, written up and fined thousands. I did it on purpose cause I knew what would happen. They thought I wasn’t needed. So my first day back we are having a huge meeting about how they all screwed up and why around 2:00 pm EST.

Has nothing to do with football but I had to tell someone.

Keep me posted on this story. Sounds like it could be good theatre.

 

[SweetT]

Hard to know for sure, but one thing that sticks out to me is that he listed who was putting in the work and indirectly called out who wasn’t. That makes me think he was part of the crew that was still on board, he kept repeating that he would continue to prepare himself for game day like he has done since he entered the league. It seems the part that splintered off was the unnamed group that wasn’t putting in the hours to be successful.

AK41 said all of the right things and he didn’t lie. We had no identity at that time and yet pushed back and said that we did have an identity, but also said that we were trying to figure things out offensively. That doesn’t make any sense. I can’t fault a player for being highly confused and even mad at that

 

[Elvis]

Who said it was veteran players that have been preparing for years? My suspicion would instead be that mostly younger players were the ones who weren’t putting in the work required to be successful.

I didn't say veteran players. Most of these guys have been living in their playbooks since high school. When you get to this level, it's because you live for football and you are driven to be the best. A rookie that played 4 years in high school and 3 years in college has been preparing for years and didn't get to the NFL by doing this kind of stuff. Something made these guys stop caring and it wasn't the sudden onset of bad attitudes.

 

[Lionsaint]

Somethings that he said in the article that stuck out to me.

Vast majority of the team stayed committed.
A few players were malcontents.
It’s a very common thing in locker rooms across the league.
The Saints dealt with it multiple years under SP including a 3 year stretch.
DA spoke to the team several weeks ago and it seemed to improve. (Could coincide with our late finish? Article doesn’t give exact timeline so can’t be positive)
Loomis spoke to the team and his message was well received.

It almost seems like Duncan was saying the locker room got a little bumpy mid-season but it wasn’t lost and things started to correct themselves. We had reports of carr buying gifts. The players body language on the sidelines looked better. They were celebrating with each and coaches. Personally I saw more people smiling and talking up teammates in interviews the last several weeks. This could be a byproduct of winning or could signal a change or shift in the team’s attitude. A change for the better.

Now for the part that will get me flamed. IF it comes out that MT and Latt were dividing the locker room and being distractions, locker room cohesion is more important to the team than either of them. I personally believe that Demario and cam are the team leaders as far as players go. If they buy in and are here next year, and it sounds like they will be, we won’t notice a leadership void with the departures of MT and Latt.

I think MT was gone after this year no matter what. And while Latts contract allows for a trade, I still don’t think it happens unless we get a really good offer.

 

[SweetT]

All of this would be smoothed over if ML would say exactly what is the vision. Just say how much of a leash has. Let’s him know it’s put up or shut up time. Then needs to take full responsibility for our shortcomings, with not including players like he did in his most recent presser. Followed by having hard convos behind closed doors with any player that doesn’t buy in. Then we can all move along with a goal in sight. Air out some stuff and stop trying to pull wool over fires bc it will burn very easily