Jeff Duncan: Inside the Saints Culture Issues (2 Viewers)

[Rouxble]

AK41 said all of the right things and he didn’t lie. We had no identity at that time and yet pushed back and said that we did have an identity, but also said that we were trying to figure things out offensively. That doesn’t make any sense. I can’t fault a player for being highly confused and even mad at that

Practically impossible to have an identity when your offensive line can’t block and your defensive line can’t get to the passer. Teams with claimed identities often look lost whenever they find a team that causes them problems in either of those areas.

 

[Rouxble]

I didn't say veteran players. Most of these guys have been living in their playbooks since high school. When you get to this level, it's because you live for football and you are driven to be the best. A rookie that played 4 years in high school and 3 years in college has been preparing for years and didn't get to the NFL by doing this kind of stuff. Something made these guys stop caring and it wasn't the sudden onset of bad attitudes.

Yes, something happened, it’s called losing. A lot of these same college players dominated in high school and even had a lot of college success based on talent, not every player is cut out to be a professional. Parcells was obsessive about selecting players that loved football, which obviously implies there are plenty of players who make it to the league that don’t (at least they don’t love it when they are not winning, not getting the ball, etc).

 

[NatureBoy]

Over the years we’ve heard of coaches getting “their guys in the building”. I’ve seen this in many different levels of business too. People will focus on what they want to but I can only speak to what I’ve seen. The article mentions the vast majority of players staying on board. You don’t win 3/4 to make a late season run if there is a mass mutiny. This appears to be a limited problem.

I don’t think this disconnect is new either. You’ve heard various players speak about people needing to handle their business. It’s obvious that some in the building weren’t doing so. I’m talking players too. On field issues were easy to see.

Regardless of where the problem lies, you can’t run back the entire Payton thing without Payton. Whether it’s DA or a new coach, they will need “their guys”. When Sean got to Denver, I chided him for bringing in some lower end former Saints. The reality was, he was adding players to the building who he knew would respect his culture. By nature, every coach has his own way and it won’t work for everyone. When you’re taking over someone else’s team, you need some people who will buy In and establish the new culture.

Sean isn’t DA and DA isn’t Sean. Neither are the up and coming coordinator that could end up replacing them. When change happens, change needs to happen at many levels. Whoever the coach is here, it’s time to rebuild this roster. Sometimes good coaches struggle to get through and you hear teams say it was time for a new voice. Well, even if that ends up being the case, that new voice comes with roster changes.

Let’s fondly remember the past and just move forward with those who want to be here. Mickey speaks of an end of the year evaluation across the board. Well that will happen and I think we’ll get some insight as to where some of the problems came from.

 

[SaintRob]

If there truly is a "culture" problem within the locker room, how do you run DA back? He does not give you any exceptional X's and O's component. He's not a ra-ra guy to make players run through a wall for him. What exactly is his best quality? Superior defense? Well, it didn't look like it against the better teams.

Kamara openly criticizing the identity of team. The whole offense gives him the middle finger. Cam Jordan says "he's our coach" with no support of him. The list goes on. How our General Manager doesn't see the writing on the wall is beyond me. Personally, I think he sees it and knows.....but either wants to save money or he does not want to admit he was wrong. Too many signs pointing to DA not having control or respect of the team. Saints will win 5-6 games next year and he gets fired mid year or at the end of the season.

First, I want to say that I'm not happy with DA coming back for another season and if PC is back without additional help (Gruden - for better or worse) then it's even worse.

I think what you've said is somewhat part of it. In addition to what you've said, we are not an attractive draw for a top head coach right now. We have an aging roster, big salary cap problems, and not a lot of prime draft stock for next year. That's a rough way for a new head coach to start. If you bring in a new head coach right now to satisfy fans, you're likely looking again in 2 years because the fans are restless with 2 more years of failure. DA really feels like a multi-year interim head coach.

There are probably several players that are looking to leave - the speculated "dissenters" - Kamara, Thomas, Lattimore, (maybe Olave?) and there might be a few more that are already on their way out (speculating Jameis, Graham). If Kamara restructures the way Lattimore did, that will be telling. If Olave is a dissenter, he needs to get that out of his head, because he's contractually tied to the Saints for 3 more years on a rookie deal. I think the team is committed to Carr and he will likely be a restructure that allows the team to move on from other high contracts to prepare for the future. Getting some draft capital out of Kamara and Lattimore also helps in the future.

I do think that Loomis sees the writing on the wall, but he can't come out and say it. He has to present the brightest picture possible, even if we're not buying it. I think we will see a change this off-season that most of us won't like short term because we see the potential in what could have been this season. I agree with you about the win potential next season, it will likely be low for 2024. I think it won't be great in 2025 either because I expect DA to be fired at the end of next season. The new head coach will still not be in a great position and we'll likely be really bad again in 2025, but will have a full slate of draft picks, minus the 7th rounder which was traded to Houston for Mark Ingram, which seems like 100 years ago. The 2025 and 2026 drafts for us will likely include really high first round picks. The 2025 pick could be the incoming coach's QB of the future (or we could wait for Manning in 2026). I don't expect us to draft a QB this year, even if one falls to us. I think the future is bleak for a couple more seasons, with 2026 really being the start of something new and better.

 

[Elvis]

Yes, something happened, it’s called losing. A lot of these same college players dominated in high school and even had a lot of college success based on talent, not every player is cut out to be a professional. Parcells was obsessive about selecting players that loved football, which obviously implies there are plenty of players who make it to the league that don’t (at least they don’t love it when they are not winning, not getting the ball, etc).

This problem is that this team wasn't even losing to the same degree as some other teams that didn't fall apart in the locker room. I just don't buy that we are the rarest of teams that has a bunch of sudden onset malcontents that created a fractured locker room when the more likely scenario is that the staff that didn't have a plan for getting better and was uninspiring in almost every way possible was simply losing the confidence of these players.

 

[SaintsFan11]

This article is hilarious. Damage control from Airline Drive.

My hope is that we’re sticking with DA in part because we’re a loyal franchise that values stability, but also because we’re not even in a position to “rebuild” with the way we’ve been managing the cap. So we’re running it back and Allen can either prove his detractors wrong or be gone after next season and a new coach will have a better situation to take over. That would make some strategic sense.
But few will buy this narrative from the organization—that beloved players are the problem and that fans are just too dense to get it. Pretty dumb.

 

[Jesse Custer]

But few will buy this narrative from the organization—that beloved players are the problem and that fans are just too dense to get it. Pretty dumb.

It does seem like some pretty strange gaslighting...but some people here are already buying into it and rationalizing DA's leadership style.

 

[St. Geezy]

The weird thing about this is when we lost to Atlanta, Karama was the vocal one publicly, as he talked about the lack of identity, so is he the ring leader of the "splinter?"

Remember AK’s “owe me” speech after one of our wins this year, where he sounded almost like a coach listing out things the team and individuals needed to work on as if he doesn’t do it no one will?

That was very revealing to me.

 

[SweetT]

Practically impossible to have an identity when your offensive line can’t block and your defensive line can’t get to the passer. Teams with claimed identities often look lost whenever they find a team that causes them problems in either of those areas.

Let’s say I’ll give you this, but tell us what was our identity??? Bc this entire board was livid for the greater part of the season. What was our identity?

 

[Archie's Boyz]

Which is why we’re 9-8, 7-10. The difference between marginal teams and great ones are slim. The whole idea is that you have a leader who gets the best out of the most people possible. It’s a hard job and takes a lot of effort. It means spending time on people when you’d rather spend time on process. You’re aleays gonna have a certain number of self motivated individuals who require very little effort to get excellence out of them. It’s the others that you have to work on if you want to be more than middle of the pack.

Must remember that CSP has two, or three, 7-9 seasons before he won the Super Bowl. Still, he had the ears of all the players. I do not see that with DA. Watch his post-game speeches. They are very flat.

 

[NatureBoy]

This article is hilarious. Damage control from Airline Drive.

My hope is that we’re sticking with DA in part because we’re a loyal franchise that values stability, but also because we’re not even in a position to “rebuild” with the way we’ve been managing the cap. So we’re running it back and Allen can either prove his detractors wrong or be gone after next season and a new coach will have a better situation to take over. That would make some strategic sense.
But few will buy this narrative from the organization—that beloved players are the problem and that fans are just too dense to get it. Pretty dumb.

I agree with the vast majority of this. I do think it’s possible for players to fracture off. No matter the business, people will check out when leadership changes. Sometimes it’s because it’s the wrong leader, sometimes it’s just because it’s a different leader. It’s just time to make sweeping changes, regardless of who the coach is or will be. Sean is gone. If some guys want Sean, send them to him or let them find their way to him. Rebuild.

 

[Rouxble]

Let’s say I’ll give you this, but tell us what was our identity??? Bc this entire board was livid for the greater part of the season. What was our identity?

Identity is a meaningless word in football, losing teams and/or struggling units can’t create one.

For example, I’ve heard announcers say that “Dallas will come after the QB, that’s who they are as a defense.” Are other teams just out of the loop on this groundbreaking strategic idea?

 

[BreesusSaves]

Hard to know for sure, but one thing that sticks out to me is that he listed who was putting in the work and indirectly called out who wasn’t. That makes me think he was part of the crew that was still on board, he kept repeating that he would continue to prepare himself for game day like he has done since he entered the league. It seems the part that splintered off was the unnamed group that wasn’t putting in the hours to be successful.

Yeah but I think it is safe to say things have changed since then.

 

[Doug B]

Personally, I feel like their massive paychecks are all the reason they need to be disciplined and focused on attention to detail.

It's why 1st Rd picks bust, and UDFAs carve out careers.
The guys that figure out how to treat like a job (because it is), who self motivate and buy in, are the guys who have a chance to stick around for a while.

This is something former Steelers coach Chuck Knoll used to say. He felt like if players needed him to motivate them to play, then they didn't belong in professional football.

Flipside: When the core of your team is eleven Hall of Famers, maybe you can count on them all self-motivating and keeping their teammates in line.

 

[No2DC]

Let's not get too nostalgic. As Duncan points out, Payton hit a similar lull and had similar locker room issues in '14, '15 and '16, going 7-9 each year for three years. When the Saints then opened the '17 season 0-2, the calls for Payton's head were loud and widespread.

I was told by a person socially friendly with Saints' execs that the issue was essentially one of veteran Payton loyalists undercutting Allen when things weren't going well. Not open rebellion, but a kind of locker room clique of bad mouthing and "back-in-the-daying." Names that got mentioned as being malcontents (at least from front office's view) were Thomas, Graham, Winston and at times Kamara, Jordan and Lattimore. This was seen as having a bad effect on younger players and setting a tone that the old-guard was kind of above the rules.

This problem is exactly why many organizations clean house when there is a leadership change.

That is true that kinda thing happens with leadership changes, but wise leaders do seek "buy in"/conversion by the old guard. In most large organizations, you can't fire everyone and start with a clean slate. The fact that a guy who has been with the organization for a long can't get "buy-in" from guys like Cam is not a good sign. Allen is a poor leader, and I can't wait until he's gone. Also, Carr is part of this as well because he obviously is not winning over the offensive vets.