LOST -the iconic TV series- Legacy, etc (1 Viewer)

[Saintman2884]

For whatever reason I usually feel honor bound to contextualize this narrative
The show’s creators envisioned something like a 60 episode story
It was ABC that kept pushing more shows (and this was at a time where going against a network was career suicide)
Creators finally put their foot down saying s6 was it
So writers strike + padding/adding a lot of story + Mr Eko leaving forcing writers to give his intended arc to Locke they just had to figure out how to land the plane ()

That being said - GoT is the prime example of an all time great show crashing to earth
Lost was an alltime great show that limped over the finish line
121 episodes - only a handful of those are tedious
That’s an incredible hit rate.
Because of its popularity and that it was one of the first internet discussion shows, Lost gets a lot of the ‘narrative’ hot takes that’s a staple of so much current content (disney umbrella shows in particular)

Guido, I also feel duty bound to remind us both that GOT is a text-book example of an all-time great show that was wonderful, told great, inspiring, gripping stories and major/minor-story-arcs, and generating real, authentic tension when its writers, creators and producers still had Martin's novels to somewhat rely on. Because he still hasn't finished the other novels (Jon is still in the Night's Watch, Tyrion is still afloat on the sea, captive on his way to Maureen with Jorell Mormont, Sansa still in the Eire with LittleFinger, Arya is on a ship to Free City of Braavos to become a Faceless Man in the Temple of Black and White, the show's writers and producers after Season 6 couldn't wait and when they didnt have the novels to fall back on, that's when the quality, efficiency, and superb level of writing, and acting, to some extent, began to suffer seriously that by Season 8, it wasnt just open cuts and sores, it was decayed, jaundiced and dying, except for perhaps the Battle of Winterfell/Last stand vs. Night King's Army of the Undead episode and to a lesser extent, the series finale, those were the only two episodes in Season 8 of GOT worth watching, IMHO.

By the way, the next season (Season 2) of House of the Dragon is debuting next month and it looks to be very interesting. It may not have the stellar, first-rate acting of Paddy Considine to fall back on (maybe one of his best roles ever) but the trailers suggest we'll see more action and political intrigue then last season and Matt Smith will take over as the show's main moving character-driven feature.

 

[Saintman2884]

The only worthwhile "arcs" in that show were on Evangeline Lilly and that Korean lady.

As to episodes, I agree the first 60 or so were good, but only because they built suspense.
The latter 60 were painfully bad as they exposed there would be no payoff resolution.

If we want to blame it on the network and give the writers a pass, that's fine.

I thought the actor who played John Locke was very good, convincing, and Terry O'Quinn was a great supporting TV/movie role actor going back decades to Star Trek: TNG, he played multiple characters in several stand-alone X-Files episodes, in Lost, he played a great "mentor-philosopher" role. He's an actor I'm glad finally got his time in the sun with something resembling that role of a lifetime that epitomizes and defines an actor/actress decades after their gone like Bryan Cranston (Walter White), Heath Ledger (Dark Knight's Joker), Lucy Lawless (Xena), David Duchovny and Gillian Anderson (X-Files' Mulder and Scully).

 

[Optimus Prime]

Like the worst of GoT is like an average Witcher episode, a bad Lost episode would be premium TWD
A bad episode of a great show is very seldom a bad episode of TV

Disagree

The worst lost episodes were just bad episodes

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Disagree

The worst lost episodes were just bad episodes

Disagree with your disagreement

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Guido, I also feel duty bound to remind us both that GOT is a text-book example of an all-time great show that was wonderful, told great, inspiring, gripping stories and major/minor-story-arcs, and generating real, authentic tension when its writers, creators and producers still had Martin's novels to somewhat rely on. Because he still hasn't finished the other novels (Jon is still in the Night's Watch, Tyrion is still afloat on the sea, captive on his way to Maureen with Jorell Mormont, Sansa still in the Eire with LittleFinger, Arya is on a ship to Free City of Braavos to become a Faceless Man in the Temple of Black and White, the show's writers and producers after Season 6 couldn't wait and when they didnt have the novels to fall back on, that's when the quality, efficiency, and superb level of writing, and acting, to some extent, began to suffer seriously that by Season 8, it wasnt just open cuts and sores, it was decayed, jaundiced and dying, except for perhaps the Battle of Winterfell/Last stand vs. Night King's Army of the Undead episode and to a lesser extent, the series finale, those were the only two episodes in Season 8 of GOT worth watching, IMHO.

By the way, the next season (Season 2) of House of the Dragon is debuting next month and it looks to be very interesting. It may not have the stellar, first-rate acting of Paddy Considine to fall back on (maybe one of his best roles ever) but the trailers suggest we'll see more action and political intrigue then last season and Matt Smith will take over as the show's main moving character-driven feature.

Wait really?
I hadn’t heard!!

(tbc I very much heard- it’s probably the most ‘sausage being made’ tv story ever)

 

[Optimus Prime]

Disagree with your disagreement

Oh yeah?

Well, I disagree with your disagreement with my disagreement

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Oh yeah?

Well, I disagree with your disagreement with my disagreement

 

[Mr. Blue Sky]

Im not sure if ive already posted my thoughts or not in this 6 page recently-bumped thread.. i dont think i have .. but i was very late to the party re Lost.. as most have mentioned the first season or two were outstanding television - but it was very obvious as the years went out that the show wasnt meant to last that long, not even close to that long… i absolutely detested the mystic, supernatural elements that became more prevalent in later seasons.. if they had stuck with something resembling reality (at least as ‘real’ as it can be that all those people survived a plane crash on a deserted island)- then the show would have remained on far more solid footing .


Also, and i suppose this is directed somewhat at Guido- just b/c there was conflict between the producers and ABC executives or whatever, doesnt give any sort of pass to anyone.. looking back now 20 yrs later, or when people look back in 50 years- it doesn’t matter who was at fault.. if the last 2 or 3 seasons sucked, then the last 2 or 3 seasons sucked, full stop.. i think it’s a lot like the show 24, which again i was very late to the party.. i realized as i was watching that the first 13 episodes were fantastic television, the next 13 pretty good.. the rest kind of crappy.. of course, when i looked it up, what do ya know, it was designed to be a 13 ep series, greed then dictated many more seasons… none of the behind the scenes shenanigans make an iota of difference, the finished product is what it is .

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

The only worthwhile "arcs" in that show were on Evangeline Lilly and that Korean lady.

As to episodes, I agree the first 60 or so were good, but only because they built suspense.
The latter 60 were painfully bad as they exposed there would be no payoff resolution.

If we want to blame it on the network and give the writers a pass, that's fine. But somebody should have gone to jail.

*smiles*sighs*pats on shoulder*

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Im not sure if ive already posted my thoughts or not in this 6 page recently-bumped thread.. i dont think i have .. but i was very late to the party re Lost.. as most have mentioned the first season or two were outstanding television - but it was very obvious as the years went out that the show wasnt meant to last that long, not even close to that long… i absolutely detested the mystic, supernatural elements that became more prevalent in later seasons.. if they had stuck with something resembling reality (at least as ‘real’ as it can be that all those people survived a plane crash on a deserted island)- then the show would have remained on far more solid footing .


Also, and i suppose this is directed somewhat at Guido- just b/c there was conflict between the producers and ABC executives or whatever, doesnt give any sort of pass to anyone.. looking back now 20 yrs later, or when people look back in 50 years- it doesn’t matter who was at fault.. if the last 2 or 3 seasons sucked, then the last 2 or 3 seasons sucked, full stop.. i think it’s a lot like the show 24, which again i was very late to the party.. i realized as i was watching that the first 13 episodes were fantastic television, the next 13 pretty good.. the rest kind of crappy.. of course, when i looked it up, what do ya know, it was designed to be a 13 ep series, greed then dictated many more seasons… none of the behind the scenes shenanigans make an iota of difference, the finished product is what it is .

So The Leftovers is probably top 3 alltime show (across the board, but for argument’s sake, I’ll stick to ‘genre’ shows)
- the strike not withstanding- The Leftovers shows what Lost could have been without network interference
It’s chief lesson was ‘don’t answer the mystery’
Accept that there are people who don’t like ambiguity and don’t like non-linear storytelling tell and there’s plenty of Slow Horses and Yellowstones for them
In hindsight this was a journey show not a destination show
I argue that the journey by itself was worth it

 

[Saintman2884]

So The Leftovers is probably top 3 alltime show (across the board, but for argument’s sake, I’ll stick to ‘genre’ shows)
- the strike not withstanding- The Leftovers shows what Lost could have been without network interference
It’s chief lesson was ‘don’t answer the mystery’
Accept that there are people who don’t like ambiguity and don’t like non-linear storytelling tell and there’s plenty of Slow Horses and Yellowstones for them
In hindsight this was a journey show not a destination show
I argue that the journey by itself was worth it

The Leftovers had more of an "implicit" or inferred religious/supernatural bent to it in that 10-15% of the world's population just disappears and many people worldwide, politicians, religious leaders, various types of people all across the socio-economic spectrum sort of assume that it's The Rapture and that the next seven years are part of the Tribulation Period/End of the World, antiChrist vs. Second Coming of Christ Armageddon prophesied in Revelations. Some religious leaders, like Christopher Eccleston's character, dispute that the Rapture even occured at all, because according to his research, a good percentage of those "Disappeared" werent exactly morally-uprighteous, law-abiding, ethical people "worthy" in his view of being Raptured.

(Warning to those who haven't watched the end of The Leftovers: Season 3 TV series: Spoilers Ahead): We find out by the end of Season 3 that the Rapture didnt really happen and it was more of a inter-dimensional multi-verse screw-up (or Nora just outright lied about going to the other parallel world in the finale. The Tribulation Period nor the AntiChrist arrived nor did the Second Coming of Christ. But the Leftovers did present more of an overt religious, mystical overtones then Lost did at the beginning as opposed to introducing these themes in later seasons.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

The Leftovers had more of an "implicit" or inferred religious/supernatural bent to it in that 10-15% of the world's population just disappears and many people worldwide, politicians, religious leaders, various types of people all across the socio-economic spectrum sort of assume that it's The Rapture and that the next seven years are part of the Tribulation Period/End of the World, antiChrist vs. Second Coming of Christ Armageddon prophesied in Revelations. Some religious leaders, like Christopher Eccleston's character, dispute that the Rapture even occured at all, because according to his research, a good percentage of those "Disappeared" werent exactly morally-uprighteous, law-abiding, ethical people "worthy" in his view of being Raptured.

(Warning to those who haven't watched the end of The Leftovers: Season 3 TV series: Spoilers Ahead): We find out by the end of Season 3 that the Rapture didnt really happen and it was more of a inter-dimensional multi-verse screw-up (or Nora just outright lied about going to the other parallel world in the finale. The Tribulation Period nor the AntiChrist arrived nor did the Second Coming of Christ. But the Leftovers did present more of an overt religious, mystical overtones then Lost did at the beginning as opposed to introducing these themes in later seasons.

Disagree
For every guilty remnant v Matt or Wayne in the Leftovers there is a Mr Eko and Locke and Temple - humans finding a type of faith to explain the unexplainable
And Lost has WAY more explicit religious references- final church scene, obviously; Jacob, the tapestry, 4 toed egyptian god statue m, et al

 

[Mr. Blue Sky]

So The Leftovers is probably top 3 alltime show (across the board, but for argument’s sake, I’ll stick to ‘genre’ shows)
- the strike not withstanding- The Leftovers shows what Lost could have been without network interference
It’s chief lesson was ‘don’t answer the mystery’
Accept that there are people who don’t like ambiguity and don’t like non-linear storytelling tell and there’s plenty of Slow Horses and Yellowstones for them
In hindsight this was a journey show not a destination show
I argue that the journey by itself was worth it

Have not seen Leftovers so cant speak to that.. re Lost, it wasnt the ‘non linear storytelling ‘ i had an issue with, not at all.. i kinda liked some of the flashbacks in the first couple seasons.. it’s my opinion that the writers ‘answering the mystery’ with vague and ambiguous mystical elements was nothing but a cop out, since they couldnt think of anything better.. and it was painfully obvious to me as the seasons went on that they were stuck and looking for an easy way out .. not that I could have done any better, but im not paid to be a television writer, or an executive for that matter .

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Have not seen Leftovers so cant speak to that.. re Lost, it wasnt the ‘non linear storytelling ‘ i had an issue with, .

that part was addressing Semper’s concerns since his post restarted the thread

 

[tenordas]

Guido, I also feel duty bound to remind us both that GOT is a text-book example of an all-time great show that was wonderful, told great, inspiring, gripping stories and major/minor-story-arcs, and generating real, authentic tension when its writers, creators and producers still had Martin's novels to somewhat rely on. Because he still hasn't finished the other novels (Jon is still in the Night's Watch, Tyrion is still afloat on the sea, captive on his way to Maureen with Jorell Mormont, Sansa still in the Eire with LittleFinger, Arya is on a ship to Free City of Braavos to become a Faceless Man in the Temple of Black and White, the show's writers and producers after Season 6 couldn't wait and when they didnt have the novels to fall back on, that's when the quality, efficiency, and superb level of writing, and acting, to some extent, began to suffer seriously that by Season 8, it wasnt just open cuts and sores, it was decayed, jaundiced and dying, except for perhaps the Battle of Winterfell/Last stand vs. Night King's Army of the Undead episode and to a lesser extent, the series finale, those were the only two episodes in Season 8 of GOT worth watching, IMHO.

Sorry, but there weren't any episodes of the final season of GoT worth watching. The Night King's demise was about as poorly done as possible with John Snow left out as an afterthought instead of being the one to stand toe to toe with him. Also, that battle should have been the season finale, not the faceoff with the Lannisters.
And speaking of that finale, what an absolute disaster. The producers decided they wanted to spend a lot of money blowing up things instead of giving the audience a character-driven ending. The only mildly satisfying thing was the fight between the Clegane brothers. Everything else in the episode was a stupid decision. Arya was left out, no one fought/killed Cersei, Daenerys flips out and burns down the castle/town from which she wants to rule, John Snow again an afterthought, Jamie's whole redemption arc thrown out for no apparent reason, Tyrion basically written off, several important minor characters basically ignored, the incredibly stupid denouement political blah, blah leaving no one in charge, etc., etc. It was awful on every level.