One thing I don't want in the draft

[504gks]

A giant, dominating LT is a sky-high positional value. His post-draft injury is moot. If the Saints get a 4-year starting LT on a rookie contract after missing the first year entirely due to injuries and redshirt season to acclimate him, it would be opposite of a "total waste" -- every team in the NFL would take that value.

The trade is totally impossible to grade as far as an outcome standpoint at this time. If Penning is a good starting LT, no one can look back and say it was a terrible move because it's no longer a hypothetical.

ETA: A good starting LT is around $13M-$20M per season. At four seasons we're talking $50-$80M. Regardless of the sheet trade value at time (which I agree was sheet), the Saints picked a super high ceiling prospect at a super high value position that's also a position of need. I can understand this in context because a successful Penning is absolutely worth that draft trade value and more.

I hope your right, but even when healthy he was a scary pass blocker. Where would he be rated compared to this years tackles if we were just patient. I think the only trade won was Jimmy Graham, and that was just a borderline win with Unger. Stephon Anthony sucked

 

[504gks]

One thing i'll add too if it hasn't been mentioned is this, I suspect the FO only wants 5 or so players out of a draft. We already have a decent/good roster, you'd just end up cutting draftees like Antonio Pittman that year if you don't have enough spots. But, if you are going to trade up, take a solid guy like Olave, not a gym freak that takes years to adapt to NFL speed strength opponents.

Our "roster" won 7 games. I think we could fit in a few talented cheap draft picks to develop

 

[JackDiesel]

I hope your right, but even when healthy he was a scary pass blocker. Where would he be rated compared to this years tackles if we were just patient. I think the only trade won was Jimmy Graham, and that was just a borderline win with Unger. Stephon Anthony sucked

He'd be the 2nd/3rd best tackle. Behind Paris Johnson, Peter Skronski is probably better right now but his short arms are a concern. After that the drop off is pretty steep. So there's a chance we wouldn't even get a tackle we'd be happy with in this draft.

 

[saint_drago]

From the 4th round on it's basically lottery tickets. Teams have different approaches on how to use these scratch offs. Teams can draft productive players from big schools who might not have the highest ceiling, they can draft high ceiling players who fell due to injury/character concerns, they can draft boom or bust projects with massive upside, or they can draft small school projects.

For as long as I can remember I've been envious of the drafts of teams like the Steelers, Ravens, and Bengals. They usually "win" the draft by taking big school "name" players who were productive in college. You were always going to be able to read about their picks in draft magazines. They usually keep it pretty simple and just draft good ball players.

The Saints have been known to get a little cute with off wall picks from schools you've never heard of. Hell they drafted a dude from Regina University in Sasquatch Canada. But it's hard to argue with the results. They have made some incredible pulls from lesser known schools.

 

[RJS]

From the 4th round on it's basically lottery tickets. Teams have different approaches on how to use these scratch offs. Teams can draft productive players from big schools who might not have the highest ceiling, they can draft high ceiling players who fell due to injury/character concerns, they can draft boom or bust projects with massive upside, or they can draft small school projects.

For as long as I can remember I've been envious of the drafts of teams like the Steelers, Ravens, and Bengals. They usually "win" the draft by taking big school "name" players who were productive in college. You were always going to be able to read about their picks in draft magazines. They usually keep it pretty simple and just draft good ball players.

The Saints have been known to get a little cute with off wall picks from schools you've never heard of. Hell they drafted a dude from Regina University in Sasquatch Canada. But it's hard to argue with the results. They have made some incredible pulls from lesser known schools.

I wonder if the same area scout is responsible for Onyematta, Ellis, Granderson and Shaheed? It would be fascinating to learn more details on their process.

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

Trajectory means something (barely) when there are more than a couple of points plotted in the player's career to date. You're jumping ahead just a couple of years here.

All I've seen is someone second guessing a pick they didn't like (I suspect you were pounding the table for a 'playmaker' instead at the time) and using that player's injuries which happened after the draft pick as some sort of justification, despite that being impossible to know at the time of the pick. Do you see how that doesn't work?

As for the trades, they wanted a WR and an OL in that round and obviously felt both were worth the cost of acquisition. I don't know that I like the cost either, but no one makes any move like this, while also saying, 'Ooh, but... y'know... what if he gets injured in year 1...?'. Because they don't have time machines, guy. They just don't.

Penning wasn't even a penciled in starter...he was a projected as a project that even if healthy wasn't going to start week 1...maybe without the injury he starts before November but that isn't the type of offensive lineman that you bank additional draft capitol to make sure you get. There were at least 2 other tackles drafted after him that contributed just as much.

My take on linemen, is that its almost all about coaching...they're all big/strong guys, coaching makes all but the elite few interchangeable.

I hope your right, but even when healthy he was a scary pass blocker. Where would he be rated compared to this years tackles if we were just patient. I think the only trade won was Jimmy Graham, and that was just a borderline win with Unger. Stephon Anthony sucked

We won the compensation part of the Graham trade, but we totally blew the pick.

 

[TribuneUK]

Penning wasn't even a penciled in starter...he was a projected as a project that even if healthy wasn't going to start week 1...maybe without the injury he starts before November but that isn't the type of offensive lineman that you bank additional draft capitol to make sure you get.

I think this is just your outlook, which all seems very short term. "Did he start immediately? If not, then he's not a good enough contributor!"

Hardly.

Again, his first year doesn't inevitably constitute his career or career path. And as for the 'project' comment, I'd be interested to hear of anyone involved with the Saints who said anything of that nature, or if it's just more hindsight criticism of a guy who lost most of his year 1 development time to an unforseeable injury .

Time to let go of our 2022 season disappointments and just breathe a little...

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

I think this is just your outlook, which all seems very short term. "Did he start immediately? If not, then he's not a good enough contributor!"

Hardly.

Again, his first year doesn't inevitably constitute his career or career path. And as for the 'project' comment, I'd be interested to hear of anyone involved with the Saints who said anything of that nature, or if it's just more hindsight criticism of a guy who lost most of his year 1 development time to an unforseeable injury .

Time to let go of our 2022 season disappointments and just breathe a little...

I think you're arguing just to argue because you're missing my point completely. Healthy or not...he was not slated to be an immediate contributor...but when we spent more than we probably should've to hold onto that 2nd first...to me, that signaled that we're trying to get 2 players that would make an immediate impact. Not a projected project lineman from a small school that many considered "not pro-ready" from day 1. That gives off the impression that the first move was made without a real plan.

Why the big push to get a guy in 2022 that wasn't going to contribute until 2023 in a way that a guy drafted later in 2022 could've done the same?

 

[TribuneUK]

I think you're arguing just to argue because you're missing my point completely.

No, I'm getting your point and I'm attempting to point out that it's potentially just your perspective colouring your outlook on this, which may just possibly not be the reality. Here's the thing I'm talking about:

Healthy or not...he was not slated to be an immediate contributor...but when we spent more than we probably should've to hold onto that 2nd first...to me, that signaled that we're trying to get 2 players that would make an immediate impact. Not a projected project lineman from a small school that many considered "not pro-ready" from day 1. That gives off the impression that the first move was made without a real plan.

Your key words here being, "to me". This whole line of thinking is based wholly on your own supposition that they had to be drafting a guy for immediate impact. And if that impact was not delivered immediately, then the whole exercise was a failure of the highest order. I think you're projecting your disappointment with his first year (which I can understand) onto any discussion about him as a draft selection or future Saints player. Which I respectfully disagree with.

I'll tell you my supposition, and it could be equally wrong: They wanted the best LT they could get and targeted the guy they could still reach in the latter first round. Rightly or wrongly, that was their guy. So they paid the cost of getting that guy, and whether you or I like the cost of doing business, that was what it cost. So then they intended to coach him up as quick as possible, likely hoping to get him in position to assume the LT spot during his first year, but having Hurst as the solid reserve option to hold down the fort. Or course, injury totally threw the plan out of the window and now he's rehabbing ready to start again in 2023.


NB. We didn't start Terron Armstead immediately his first year either. Even Willie Road played RT his whole first year before we trusted him to be the HOF player he was at LT. It. Takes. Time. Even with great coaching.

 

[RaginCajun83]

Is to trade up in the first round

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

No, I'm getting your point and I'm attempting to point out that it's potentially just your perspective colouring your outlook on this, which may just possibly not be the reality. Here's the thing I'm talking about:


Your key words here being, "to me". This whole line of thinking is based wholly on your own supposition that they had to be drafting a guy for immediate impact. And if that impact was not delivered immediately, then the whole exercise was a failure of the highest order. I think you're projecting your disappointment with his first year (which I can understand) onto any discussion about him as a draft selection or future Saints player. Which I respectfully disagree with.

I'll tell you my supposition, and it could be equally wrong: They wanted the best LT they could get and targeted the guy they could still reach in the latter first round. Rightly or wrongly, that was their guy. So they paid the cost of getting that guy, and whether you or I like the cost of doing business, that was what it cost. So then they intended to coach him up as quick as possible, likely hoping to get him in position to assume the LT spot during his first year, but having Hurst as the solid reserve option to hold down the fort. Or course, injury totally threw the plan out of the window and now he's rehabbing ready to start again in 2023.


NB. We didn't start Terron Armstead immediately his first year either. Even Willie Road played RT his whole first year before we trusted him to be the HOF player he was at LT. It. Takes. Time. Even with great coaching.

RIght...it takes coaching...so let coaching coach up a 2nd or 3rd rounder if they're so good at coaching

 

[TribuneUK]

RIght...it takes coaching...so let coaching coach up a 2nd or 3rd rounder if they're so good at coaching

Its up to you to choose what hill you die on, I suppose. Bon chance.

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

Its up to you to choose what hill you die on, I suppose. Bon chance.

Later dude, y'all trip me out for real...some of yall are the type to walk into a Chevy dealership w/ 100k to burn and no wife/kids and come out with a Traverse and an Equinox and lie to themselves and say "I got great value for my money...walked out with 2 cars with a lot of space for things and still have 5k to spend on a new riding mower"......not me, give me the GD Corvette.

 

[504gks]

I wonder if the same area scout is responsible for Onyematta, Ellis, Granderson and Shaheed? It would be fascinating to learn more details on their proTot

Thanks I've admittedly been a little out of touch on the drafts the past few years as I am dealing with my football addiction, I promised myself I would scale back when Payton/Brees retired, lol.

Now my draft prep is the week of, so I barely know the top players until then and don't watch college ball. I like Penning, he just hasn't really been available so far to form an opinion. He'll be like an extra 1st this year in ways.

Drafts 2018-Trequan is left 2019 Eric McCoy is left 2020 Ruiz. Baun, Trautman- This is all we have from those three drafts. I think we area little overrated in drafting. Still talking about 2017, that was 6 years ago.