PFF - have y'all seen this (3 Viewers)

[David Robbins]

Y'all have just totally glossed over my restart of this thread.

 

[jahsoul357]

And 1 more point:

Saints offense ranked among NFL's most-improved units going into 2023

The Derek Carr-led New Orleans Saints offense has been ranked among the NFL’s most-improved units going into 2023:

saintswire.usatoday.com

They said that Carr is a "viable starter for years" because he was 14th in total QBR in 2021 and 2022? If they only knew....

I'm puzzled by how you think anything I said above is race related. "You guys" refers to the collection historical revisionist, who seem to extemporaneously interject Jamies into narratives about his play or being traded, or crabs. Jamies hasn't had a complete season to judge his skills by. He has been injured 2x playing for us, and your offended he can't find Kamara w/ his fractured back? You better hope Jamies can light it up, because every starting QB for the Saints going back 4 yrs has missed games.

We would have to ask ourselves why is the back up QB the subject at all? 95% of Saints report love Jamies as a man and team mate. The B/W race thing is just the by product of the internet. It amplifies the voice of everyone, but sometimes it is only the 5% of the people who race matters to.....get herd.

*taking "extemporaneously" and putting that in the pocket* lol

 

[jessy]

My take on each group...

Good enough to win a few playoff games and possibly a super bowl if the ball bounces our way
OL, QB, RB, WR, TE, DE, CB, S, K/P

One injury away from a disaster
LB

Serious concerns, gonna need to get lucky
DL, HC

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

And 1 more point:

Saints offense ranked among NFL's most-improved units going into 2023

The Derek Carr-led New Orleans Saints offense has been ranked among the NFL’s most-improved units going into 2023:

saintswire.usatoday.com

well hell that settles it....we don't have to play any games...saintswire.usatoday.com says we're most improved....WE DID IT GUYS!!!!

 

[David Robbins]

Jameis Winston Career Stats | NFL.com

Derek Carr Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Derek Carr. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

This might help to show the reason he is not starting

Once again, here are the stats of both QB's. Derek is clearly better. Maybe not in a much bigger way, but better - @ least with good coaching.

 

[jahsoul357]

Once again, here are the stats of both QB's. Derek is clearly better. Maybe not in a much bigger way, but better - @ least with good coaching.

Stats have a funny way of showing things.



Carr before Gruden
Winston before Arians

 

[Rouxble]

Once again, here are the stats of both QB's. Derek is clearly better. Maybe not in a much bigger way, but better - @ least with good coaching.

Hard to compare QB’s on raw stats, which is why so many new derivative stats have been developed over the last few decades to add context and get better signal from the noise.

Football Outsiders is one outlet that does that, looking at team and player performance on each play and adjusting it based on situation and opposition. Two key player stats are DYAR (defense-adjusted yards above replacement) and DVOA (defense-adjusted value over average). The first one measures a players total contribution relative to a replacement level player with the same number of attempts, the second measures a player’s effectiveness on a per play basis. Both are adjusted for situation (down/distance, field position, scoring margin, time remaining) and defense.

In Carr’s nine-year career, he has been top ten in DYAR four times and top ten in DVOA three times. Dalton has been top ten in both once (in 2016). Winston has not had a top ten finish in either.

That said, if Winston finishes the Bucs game in 2021, he likely would have had enough attempts (200) to have his first top ten DVOA finish in his career.

It‘s unfortunate that injuries have derailed his Saints career, but Winston definitely showed promise in our system. I wonder what could have been, but I understand that the FO wanted to go in a different direction rather than play the guy that couldn‘t complete the last two seasons.

To close things out, it‘s worth mentioning that Brees was top seven in DYAR and DVOA every year from 2006 to 2019, finishing 12th in both categories in 2020. He was so good that we will probably struggle as a fan base to recognize a good QB because we just retired one of the greats.

 

[jahsoul357]

More wins
More TDs
Less INTs

Definitely inconclusive.

*today was the day that I had to let @TribuneUK know that wins are a team stat*
You do know wins are a team stat, right? But you are absolute right from a stat perspective; Carr had 6 more TDs in 6 more games and Jameis threw more interceptions. Outside of that, they were dang near equal in everything else with metrics leaning towards Jameis. Anyone that can read stats would tell you that they were pretty much virtually identical in individual stats. (other than the little detail of the Bucs having a higher point per game average than the Raiders while their defense gave up more points over those 4 seasons). This is the thing; when people bring up Derek Carr stats, they only talk about the Gruden years. When people talk about Jameis, they talk about his single season with Arians. You understand how that works now?

 

[TribuneUK]

*today was the day that I had to let @TribuneUK know that wins are a team stat*
You do know wins are a team stat, right? But you are absolute right from a stat perspective; Carr had 6 more TDs in 6 more games and Jameis threw more interceptions. Outside of that, they were dang near equal in everything else with metrics leaning towards Jameis. Anyone that can read stats would tell you that they were pretty much virtually identical in individual stats. (other than the little detail of the Bucs having a higher point per game average than the Raiders while their defense gave up more points over those 4 seasons). This is the thing; when people bring up Derek Carr stats, they only talk about the Gruden years. When people talk about Jameis, they talk about his single season with Arians. You understand how that works now?

You can't help yourself. You can't help but defend Jameis, even if the criticism someone posted was actually deleted.

Do you know why I deleted it? Because I knew you wouldn't be able to see any validity in it. You can't take the guy off that pedestal you've built him. It's just not possible for you to see it.

The reason I don't engage with you on these stats you keep trying to use, is because you apply such patently inappropriate equivalences. Throwing 14 more interceptions in 6 less games is "dang near equal" - can you hear yourself? 58 interceptions in 56 games. 58. In the modern era of football.

You've clung so desperately to the notion that Winston's brand was damaged by Arians, but his body of work before that, which you've tried to justify, is still littered with poor results and turnovers.

Did you know that, before his final season in TB was done, he was already the NFL's career leader in committing turnovers on an opening drive? The all time NFL leader in less than 5 seasons. Can you imagine the damage it does to your chances of winning the game to give it straight to the opposition right at the outset? Not just occasionally, but several times a season. You can't blame Arians for all those opening drives before he was even coach, although by then Jameis had it down to a fine art - there was a stretch of 4 consecutive games where he did it in 2019, IIRC.

Coaches and teams hate turnovers. Most of the time, when you lose the turnover battle, you lose the game. QBs who turn the ball over a lot and don't win, don't stick around long. It's why 'gunslinger' is a dirty word in the NFL now. Fans might get jazzed about passing for thousands of yards, but teams would be delighted if they threw it for under 100 a game and still won every time. Because stats are just numbers arranged together, they don't equal wins.

And every successful QB is defined by the wins they contribute to, whether it's from their arm or their ability to hand off. Their ability to maintain drives, not turn the ball over, make key decisions on critical downs. Those things count. If you don't do those things, they let you go.

The Bucs let Jameis go. The Saints tried, but ultimately decided to go with AD. Now they have decided to go with Carr. I know JW's a good ol' Bessemer boy, but that doesn't excuse some painful facts.

I don't dislike JW. I dislike your illogical fascination with him as something he is not. At least not yet, I hope he finds his late career renaissance, but they tend to be rare.

There, did I talk enough football for you?

Just to be clear, every question I just asked is rhetorical. I'm not interested in a response this time

 

[jahsoul357]

I'm going to reply to this and we can agree to disagree but you don't post a hypothetical novel. If there was any QB that it could be said that I was a legit "stan" for to replace Drew, it would be Teddy B. I followed his career from the Belk Bowl his freshmen year to now. His progression through the offense made me believe that Drew was going to ride off into the sunset, the keys to the house would be handed to Teddy and it would be business as usual. As we all know, that didn't happen. When we picked up Jameis, I went and actually did my homework on him and reality didn't match narrative.

You can't help yourself. You can't help but defend Jameis, even if the criticism someone posted was actually deleted.

Do you know why I deleted it? Because I knew you wouldn't be able to see any validity in it. You can't take the guy off that pedestal you've built him. It's just not possible for you to see it.

I don't have anyone on a pedestal. My notion is that he is way better than the casual believe and when you bring up things out your butt, I just call you out on it. You've never seen me once start a threat or topic on Jameis but I usually respond to responses that I know you have no way to back up. See, I talk football and you can't find any post where I'm making my position from a place of feelings.

The reason I don't engage with you on these stats you keep trying to use, is because you apply such patently inappropriate equivalences. Throwing 14 more interceptions in 6 less games is "dang near equal" - can you hear yourself? 58 interceptions in 56 games. 58. In the modern era of football.

You've clung so desperately to the notion that Winston's brand was damaged by Arians, but his body of work before that, which you've tried to justify, is still littered with poor results and turnovers.

You can't engage with me in stats because
#1 - I know them
#2 - I understand them
#3 - Metrics

Why did Jameis throw more interceptions than Carr? Because Jameis threw the ball FARTHER than Carr. How can you tell that from raw stats you might ask? Using the handy, dandy attachment that I added earlier, Jameis completed nearly 200 less passes than Carr but only had 60 less yards than Carr. Common knowledge goes: the further the ball travels, the higher the risk. This is why Drew Brees, in his prime, was only behind Eli Manning for interceptions thrown. Winston and Carr those first 4 seasons threw touchdowns at an identical rate.

And I don't think Arians ruined his brand. I think casuals and pundits who don't know anything about Arians' system did the damage. Jameis in another season in that system would have been dangerous but Tom Brady fell into their lap.

*warning - football talk*

Arians ran a vertical system where every receiver had options built into each route dang near every play. On top of that, they occurred at the top of the route. Which mean that not only did the timing have to be right but both the WR and the QB has to see the same thing at the top of that route. This is why Bruce Arians and Godwin said that at least half of the interceptions were the receivers fault but casuals took it as them taking up for him, when in reality, film points to the same thing.

All-22 Film Review: Bucs QB Jameis Winston's 30 INTs | Pewter Report

PewterReport.com's Trevor Sikkema reviews the film on all of Jameis Winston's 30 interceptions in 2019 and assesses the proper blame.

www.pewterreport.com

It's not a system you pick up in a single year, and I've said the same thing about Carr in McDaniels system, but people seem to only understand that latter.

Did you know that, before his final season in TB was done, he was already the NFL's career leader in committing turnovers on an opening drive? The all time NFL leader in less than 5 seasons. Can you imagine the damage it does to your chances of winning the game to give it straight to the opposition right at the outset? Not just occasionally, but several times a season. You can't blame Arians for all those opening drives before he was even coach, although by then Jameis had it down to a fine art - there was a stretch of 4 consecutive games where he did it in 2019, IIRC.

You sure about that? So he was the NFL career leader in committing turnovers on an opening drive before his 5th season? What was the actual number? Just for reference, between 2006-2009, Drew had 7 opening drive turnovers.

*waiting because I actually know the answer*

And in 2019, the Bucs were actually 4-2 when Jameis was responsible for a turnover on an opening drive. They actually lost more games when Jameis had over 100 passer rating than they did when he threw an interception on the opening drive.

The damage!!!

Coaches and teams hate turnovers. Most of the time, when you lose the turnover battle, you lose the game. QBs who turn the ball over a lot and don't win, don't stick around long. It's why 'gunslinger' is a dirty word in the NFL now. Fans might get jazzed about passing for thousands of yards, but teams would be delighted if they threw it for under 100 a game and still won every time. Because stats are just numbers arranged together, they don't equal wins.

But we didn't hate turnovers in Brees' prime, did we?

Most Interceptions Thrown 2006 To 2015 | StatMuse

Between the 2006 and 2015 seasons, Eli Manning had the most intercepted passes, with 173 interceptions.

www.statmuse.com

I know, I know "good will" but facts are facts. People only care about turnovers based on who throws them.

But you know what really loses games? Not being able to score, which is something that, for some reason, a lot of people on here choose to ignore. And being a gunslinger was cool until it wasn't. It was cool for us until Drew's body began to breakdown. Crap, people wanted to call Mahomes a gunslinger until they realized that those were just highlights.

And every successful QB is defined by the wins they contribute to, whether it's from their arm or their ability to hand off. Their ability to maintain drives, not turn the ball over, make key decisions on critical downs. Those things count. If you don't do those things, they let you go.

This is what those metrics that you all like to ignore points to, such as QBs that convert at a high rate on 1st down, 3rd down, in the red zone, etc which makes this statement a contradiction to previous points made when shown data that quantifies that. And this is what I speak of when I talk about evaluating from your feelings. You are so stuck on "interceptions" that you seem to ignore everything else that matters about playing the QB position, until you.....don't? When metrics are presented that shows this, yall call it...what do yall cal it? Oh, that's right. "cherry picking."

The Bucs let Jameis go. The Saints tried, but ultimately decided to go with AD. Now they have decided to go with Carr. I know JW's a good ol' Bessemer boy, but that doesn't excuse some painful facts.

I don't dislike JW. I dislike your illogical fascination with him as something he is not. At least not yet, I hope he finds his late career renaissance, but they tend to be rare.

There, did I talk enough football for you?

Just to be clear, every question I just asked is rhetorical. I'm not interested in a response this time

You tried....
But you go in peace and hope you enjoy your day. lol

Just going to leave this here..

Sean Payton on Jameis Winston: 'Two Years Together Were Fantastic'

Sean Payton joined Inside Access with Jason La Canfora and Ken Weinman and discussed quarterback Jameis Winston.

www.si.com

 

[Rexman100]

I'm puzzled by how you think anything I said above is race related. "You guys" refers to the collection historical revisionist, who seem to extemporaneously interject Jamies into narratives about his play or being traded, or crabs. Jamies hasn't had a complete season to judge his skills by. He has been injured 2x playing for us, and your offended he can't find Kamara w/ his fractured back? You better hope Jamies can light it up, because every starting QB for the Saints going back 4 yrs has missed games.

We would have to ask ourselves why is the back up QB the subject at all? 95% of Saints report love Jamies as a man and team mate. The B/W race thing is just the by product of the internet. It amplifies the voice of everyone, but sometimes it is only the 5% of the people who race matters to.....get herd.

i agree, the race card in football is non existent, or should be