PFF - have y'all seen this (3 Viewers)

[liveoakh]

Jamie's also threw over 30 int's in a season, which no other QB has ever done. Jamie's eye test is this. One game he will look like the best QB in the NFL, then the next, he looks like a flop.

He also threw for 33 TDS in a system Brady scraped in the beginning of his first season, because of turning the ball over.

 

[TribuneUK]

We just need Big L to join in now and the trinity of Jameis apologists will be complete.

Let's not forget, Jahsoul would honestly start JW over Carr, by his own words. Same for you is it, @liveoakh ?

 

[jahsoul357]

We just need Big L to join in now and the trinity of Jameis apologists will be complete.

Let's not forget, Jahsoul would honestly start JW over Carr, by his own words. Same for you is it, Oak?

The difference between you and myself is I can use stats, metrics, and film to justify my position. Can you provide me any quantifiable reasons why Carr should start over Winston? I'll wait...

Jamie's also threw over 30 int's in a season, which no other QB has ever done. Jamie's eye test is this. One game he will look like the best QB in the NFL, then the next, he looks like a flop.

@ the QB position, you can't be tentative, nor hold on to a bad play in your mind. Jamie's done that. You have to go on to the next play.

Personally, I don't think he is cut out for the WCO. He needs to be in a system like the air corryelle system that will utilize his arm.

Jameis doesn't even hold the Bucs record for most interceptions in a season..lol. The media made it a huge deal, which is something they didn't do when Eli Manning threw 27, Peyton threw 28, and Favre threw 29. And if you actually break down those interceptions (which you won't ever see Underhill, Ross, or anyone else in local media do), you would see that 16 of them game from 4 games and those are the 4 games that you can realistically put on Jameis losing that season. Like I said before, he threw interceptions in less games than Drew did when he tossed 22. He made some BAD throws but when looking at film, a good chunk of them came from WRs running the wrong route, which was then blamed on "decision making." Funny enough, the WRs got proper blame when Brady was making those same throws the next season and then he threw "No Risk It, No Biscuit" in the dumpster after the bye week.

Let me ask you this; how many people are giving Carr a pass for playing like he did last season because he was in a new system with a new coach but for Jameis, throw out 30 interceptions with a giggle?

And reading about Jimbo Fisher's offensive scheme, Jameis should have never been put in the Coryell; that was a Lovie misstep. Funny enough, the offense that he ran in college is closest in concept (literally) to what Josh McDaniels took to Las Vegas.

Core concepts of the FSU offense.

A look at some of the core concepts of Jimbo Fisher's offense.

www.tomahawknation.com

Adams shines light on how McDaniels’ system can open him up

WR ‘feeling really comfortable’ in new offense

www.silverandblackpride.com

Everyone talks about his arm, but his draft reports talked about his IQ, and that's for a reason.

 

[SWJJ]

I'm a fan of Winston, and do not think he has had a fair shake in NOLA, but starting him over Carr would be ridiculous.

 

[TribuneUK]

The difference between you and myself is I can use stats, metrics, and film to justify my position. Can you provide me any quantifiable reasons why Carr should start over Winston? I'll wait...


Jameis doesn't even hold the Bucs record for most interceptions in a season..lol. The media made it a huge deal, which is something they didn't do when Eli Manning threw 27, Peyton threw 28, and Favre threw 29. And if you actually break down those interceptions (which you won't ever see Underhill, Ross, or anyone else in local media do), you would see that 16 of them game from 4 games and those are the 4 games that you can realistically put on Jameis losing that season. Like I said before, he threw interceptions in less games than Drew did when he tossed 22. He made some BAD throws but when looking at film, a good chunk of them came from WRs running the wrong route, which was then blamed on "decision making." Funny enough, the WRs got proper blame when Brady was making those same throws the next season and then he threw "No Risk It, No Biscuit" in the dumpster after the bye week.

Let me ask you this; how many people are giving Carr a pass for playing like he did last season because he was in a new system with a new coach but for Jameis, throw out 30 interceptions with a giggle?

And reading about Jimbo Fisher's offensive scheme, Jameis should have never been put in the Coryell; that was a Lovie misstep. Funny enough, the offense that he ran in college is closest in concept (literally) to what Josh McDaniels took to Las Vegas.

Core concepts of the FSU offense.

A look at some of the core concepts of Jimbo Fisher's offense.

www.tomahawknation.com

Adams shines light on how McDaniels’ system can open him up

WR ‘feeling really comfortable’ in new offense

www.silverandblackpride.com

Everyone talks about his arm, but his draft reports talked about his IQ, and that's for a reason.

I asked Oak, not you, but thanks anyway. Your position is already crystal clear

 

[jahsoul357]

I'm a fan of Winston, and do not think he has had a fair shake in NOLA, but starting him over Carr would be ridiculous.

It's ridiculous because we just gave him a $150 million contract. But @TribuneUK asked my opinion (even though I know he didn't really want to talk from a football perspective) which one would I start and gave him an answer from both an objective standpoint (it all depends on the offense that is ran) and from a subjective standpoint.

Now personally, if I had to pick a QB to build my system around between those 2, I would pick Jameis every day of the week; why?
*When DC4 got into a completely different and complex system with a crazy coach, his TD rate went up but his completion percentage dropped, his yards per game went down, and his interception rate increased.
*When Jameis got into a completely different and complex system with a crazy coach, his TD rate went up, his yards per game went, his completion percentage dropped, his interception rate exploded, but he still led the #3 team in both scoring and yards WITHOUT a run game.

But when you actually peel back the layers of that 2019 season, it shows a lot more and for those that really know football know that we dodge a bullet with the Bucs thinking short term vs long term. Because the truth is, both Carr and Winston would have been much better 2nd season in McDaniels' and Arians' systems, respectively. Imagine a QB throwing 5k yards and 33TDs in what is said to be their worst season because they are still learning the system and then things "click."

Not to mention the fact that he is better on 1st down, 3rd down, TD rate, RZ conversion, CPOE, EPA, YPG, TD per game, against the blitz (and sadly, have to mention "when healthy" since everyone will default to last season), and other objective and subjective metrics. (like ESPN QBR for instance). Information it looks like @TribuneUK can't present in his "defense" of Carr. Carr just throws less interceptions, as do most people who dink and dunk the majority of their throws. Drew averaged 15 interceptions a season in his prime. Those numbers dropped dramatically when he body forced him into a dink and dunk offense. Is this saying that Carr is bad? Not even close but as I told him the other day, most stats and metrics lean towards Jameis.

At the end of the day, I want the Carr led Saints to beat every team we face, but being really real, he wasn't an upgrade. He was just DA's "guy." Nothing wrong with that but it is what it is.

I asked Oak, not you, but thanks anyway. Your position is already crystal clear

The post of a man that has nothing. Crazy how you can go from

I'll ask you the same question again, just in case you think I missed the non-answer:

To not even being able to answer a simple question your dang self. Funny how things turn out when you actually have to qualify something.

 

[SWJJ]

You put me in a weird position because I like Winston.

But Carr has a better Career Completion Percentage and a better winning Percentage.

Winston has had significantly better talent surrounding him on offense.



Even though Carr has 2100 more attempts and 14000 more yards, and 80 more touchdowns, they have virtually the same number of interceptions.

So despite all your stats, the traditional stats QBs are measured in: Completion Percent, TD:INT Ratio 4th Comeback drives, and Winning Percentage, Carr tops Winston in all of them.

 

[TribuneUK]

It's ridiculous because we just gave him a $150 million contract. But @TribuneUK asked my opinion (even though I know he didn't really want to talk from a football perspective) which one would I start and gave him an answer from both an objective standpoint (it all depends on the offense that is ran) and from a subjective standpoint.


Not to mention the fact that he is better on 1st down, 3rd down, TD rate, RZ conversion, CPOE, EPA, YPG, TD per game, against the blitz (and sadly, have to mention "when healthy" since everyone will default to last season), and other objective and subjective metrics. (like ESPN QBR for instance). Information it looks like @TribuneUK can't present in his "defense" of Carr. Carr just throws less interceptions, as do most people who dink and dunk the majority of their throws. Drew averaged 15 interceptions a season in his prime. Those numbers dropped dramatically when he body forced him into a dink and dunk offense. Is this saying that Carr is bad? Not even close but as I told him the other day, most stats and metrics lean towards Jameis.

At the end of the day, I want the Carr led Saints to beat every team we face, but being really real, he wasn't an upgrade. He was just DA's "guy." Nothing wrong with that but it is what it is.


The post of a man that has nothing. Crazy how you can go from

To not even being able to answer a simple question your dang self. Funny how things turn out when you actually have to qualify something.

Try not to be frustrated. You might need to double check yourself, as I haven't presented any "defense" of Carr - I'm not seeking to. That's why I don't need to pull up selective stats and assertions to support a straw man in the way you're so fond of doing.

What I have done is pointed out the fact that you have only engaged with this thread for one reason, to run down Carr because you think Jameis should start. Everything else is just picking any cherry you can come up with to try to justify that, while simultaneously making excuses for everything JW usually gets criticised for.

It's pretty plain how you operate, it's on every thread where you post about any Saints QBs. I've just helped you to be more honest about it this time

 

[jahsoul357]

You put me in a weird position because I like Winston.

But Carr has a better Career Completion Percentage and a better winning Percentage.

Regarding completion percentage, I spoke this before and this is why I mentioned that it was tricky to @Rexman100

But some how still come ahead in metrics against QB1...

For example, since 2015, from behind the line of scrimmage to 10 yards out, their completion percentage is virtually identical.
Winston: 1088/1418 = 76.7%
Carr: 2191/2836 = 77.2%

From 10-20 yards, Jameis is the more accurate of the 2
Winston: 535/895 = 59.7%
Carr: 487/875 = 55.6%

But because Jameis threw the intermediate pass at a higher volume (much higher, when you consider the fact that Carr play 40+ more games during this time period), their behind the line to 20 yards completion percentage ends up like:
Winston: 1623/2313 = 70.1%
Carr: 2678/3711 = 72.1%

This is why Winston has a higher CPOE compared to Carr.
But here is the kicker. Before getting into Gruden's offense and Jameis going to Arians offense, they were dang near statically identical.

And their winning percentages are extremely close:

Carr: .444
Winston: .442

Winston has had significantly better talent surrounding him on offense.

Who?

Even though Carr has 2100 more attempts and 14000 more yards, and 80 more touchdowns, they have virtually the same number of interceptions.

We can talk about the interceptions but what is also glaring is that in 2100 more pass attempts, he only has 80 more TDs.

So despite all your stats, the traditional stats QBs are measured in: Completion Percent, TD:INT Ratio 4th Comeback drives, and Winning Percentage, Carr tops Winston in all of them.

You can't name one person who cared about a 4th quarter comeback "stat" until that became a talking point for Carr...lol. All joking aside, the only real thing people would have to rest their hat on is TD:INT ratio but does that really matter when you aren't throwing TDs at a high rate? Drew didn't hit the mythical 2:1 ratio until the 2013 season. Matter of fact, at the end of Drew's full 9th year starting, he had nearly 40 more interceptions than Carr while throwing 200 less passes. He also had 20 more TDs than Carr.

Crap, Dalton had a 2:1 ratio this past season and we were bottom 10 in points.

Try not to be frustrated. You might need to double check yourself, as I haven't presented any "defense" of Carr - I'm not seeking to. That's why I don't need to pull up selective stats and assertions to support a straw man.

What I have done is pointed out the fact that you have only engaged with this thread for one reason, to run down Carr because you think Jameis should start. Everything else is just picking any cherry you can come up with to try to justify that, while simultaneously making excuses for everything JW usually gets criticised for.

It's pretty plain how you operate, it's on every thread where you post about any Saints QBs. I've just helped you to be more honest about it this time

So saying that Carr has legitimate red flags is "running down" on him? You never once heard me say that Jameis should start; that's your straw man. And even then, I said if I am building an offense around those 2, this is who I would start. That is why specifics burn down a strawman every time.

Now personally, if I had to pick a QB to build my system around between those 2, I would pick Jameis every day of the week; why?

Because I knew you really didn't want to talk football, I was very specific in my wording. That is the beauty of seeing the strawman argument you were building from a mile away.

And you can speak to me cherry picking anything because I didn't. Only people that say I cherry picked something only do it because you got information your "eye test" didn't give you.

 

[TribuneUK]

Ah now that's a shame, you managed a brief flirtation with honesty back on page 5 (with some help) and admitted that you think Jameis should start over Carr, but now you've gone back to the old act.

I'll just revert to observing that you're clearly going to continue questioning the quality of any other Saints QB not called Jameis, not because it's evidential fact, but because you can't let go of your vision of Jameis being a starter for this team.

 

[jahsoul357]

Ah now that's a shame, you managed a brief flirtation with honesty back on page 5 (with some help) and admitted that you think Jameis should start over Carr, but now you've gone back to the old act.

I'll just revert to observing that you're clearly going to continue questioning the quality of any other Saints QB not called Jameis, not because it's evidential fact, but because you can't let go of your vision of Jameis being a starter for this team.

Nope...my "honesty" is since DA has a specific offense in mind, he should play whoever fits/plays in that system better. It's not a hard concept to get and I clearly stated this.
If he wants to run an offense similar to that of a "broken" Brees, Carr would be the better fit, as that's the system he has played in majority of his career. If he wanted to run something similar to the offense up until 2015 or the offense that Carr just left, Jameis would be the better fit, as those were the offenses that he ran in college and the league.

And what quality did I question? I asked a simple question that no one has been able to answer; what makes Carr an upgrade over Dalton or Winston? If you can't answer this without reference to a line from Underhill or Ross, then you honestly don't know.
He is Saints QB1 and I'm rocking with him but I've always viewed him as a side grade and I said that from the get go. It's crazy how you want to listen to pundits and front offices when they talk about any other QB but when those same people don't bask in the rays the sunshine pumpers are pushing, then it is fingers in ears.

But again, my post is about football; yours seem to come from "feelings."

 

[sammymvpknight]

Nope...my "honesty" is since DA has a specific offense in mind, he should play whoever fits/plays in that system better. It's not a hard concept to get and I clearly stated this.
If he wants to run an offense similar to that of a "broken" Brees, Carr would be the better fit, as that's the system he has played in majority of his career. If he wanted to run something similar to the offense up until 2015 or the offense that Carr just left, Jameis would be the better fit, as those were the offenses that he ran in college and the league.

And what quality did I question? I asked a simple question that no one has been able to answer; what makes Carr an upgrade over Dalton or Winston? If you can't answer this without reference to a line from Underhill or Ross, then you honestly don't know.
He is Saints QB1 and I'm rocking with him but I've always viewed him as a side grade and I said that from the get go. It's crazy how you want to listen to pundits and front offices when they talk about any other QB but when those same people don't bask in the rays the sunshine pumpers are pushing, then it is fingers in ears.

But again, my post is about football; yours seem to come from "feelings."

If Carr is the same guy as last year, we are in for a long season. But I think most are willing to give him a mulligan considering just how dysfunctional that situation was.

 

[Rexman100]

Actually, I wasn't trying to establish any ground work a future debate. haha. I was just saying that the team will probably look different, as it looked different with Stidham running the show, as he has been in that system for years. And if Carr struggled in McDaniels' system, why would you expect him to be given full control? He wasn't demoted; he had to learn an offense that wasn't based off an WCO.

It seems like you are missing Duece and Reggie in that. And Drew didn't always make the right read; again, this perceptions is coming from the Deification of Drew. We started 2007 0-4 and Drew averaged 232 yards per game and threw 1 touchdown and 9 interceptions in those games. Let me repeat; IN 2007, DREW, IN HIS 7th SEASON AND SECOND WITH SEAN PAYTON STARTED THE SEASON THROWING 9 INTERCEPTIONS AND ONLY 1 TD. lol. In 2010, Drew threw interceptions in more games than Jameis did when he threw 30. Gat dern; Drew is one of the greatest QBs to ever play this game but he was far from perfect.

I told you why completion percentage was finicky:
Jameis threw longer passes at a much higher rate (and huge part of his completions and attempts) than Carr. Passes less than 10 yards makes us the vast majority of Carr's completion percentage. Because he throws those shorter passes at a much higher volume, those dictate how the calculations are actually "weighed." But this is why CPOE was created and this is why Jameis has a higher CPOE than DC4. Once you peel back the layers of the completion percentage, then it goes into the "eye test" and as we have establish, when you put all of your focus on a player, you miss everything else. Anyone who watched any game since 2021 would know that the bigger problems resided outside of the QB position.

The funny thing is you are saying that you play the hand that you are dealt but then make excuses to why Carr hasn't succeeded.

Jameis has only thrown multiple picks 3 times in 10 games with the Saints. And in one of those games, it was a tipped pass and a last minute hail mary. Were you really watching the games?
And contrary to popular belief, I'm not emotionally tied to a player succeeding or failing because it doesn't equal my success, I don't gamble, nor play fantasy football..lol. And you think that I'm just seeing good passes when in the same post, I said that Jameis made bad passes and reads. What I don't do is grade him on a standard that we never held Drew to. Drew made horrible throws; there was never 4k photos to critique them. Drew made plenty of bad reads but we didn't have articles on articles talking about it. And I will say this again; when your "eye test" defaults to being "overly critical," it can't be trusted because all of your focus on that player, and that player alone. If all you can speak about if how many yards Jameis threw for without even acknowledging the situation of the team, what all were you looking at?

And Jameis held the ball longer because his IAY is higher than most. The further you throw the ball, the longer your actually hold it.


What if I told you, from 2017 - 2020, Drew only threw 17 300+ games out of 54 starts? Matter of fact, from 2017 to his retirement, Drew only averaged like 260 yards per game.
And the whole pass to run thing doesn't fly for 2021 because who did we have running the ball? AK and AK alone...lol. When Mark Ingram left, we had Murray. When Murray left in 2021, who did we have? Crap, we can say the same thing regarding this past season. Run game was FLAT.

I haven’t deep dived into Carrs play at the Raiders under JM. Did he struggle did he not struggle? Did he not comprehend the system or was it a physical limitation? Both? Neither?. I don’t know, but what I do know is that the Raiders hired a coach that has extremely strong ties with Jimmy G. And now he’s their QB. And his QB (Carr) at the time was cut before the season ended. Coincidence? I think not. Did JM really give Carr a fair shake? Not at all. Imagine your reaction if it was JW being cut in that manner. At least when JW went out it was to injury and not financial.

about JW/DB comparisons: We were devastated by a hurricane in 2005 and prior to that til 1967, that’s 38 years, the Saints only mustered one playoff win. In 2006, we not only win the division and a playoff game, we make it to the NFC Championship. The Saints fans went from absolutely zero hope to Supernowl hopeful in 1 year. So you can’t bring up 2007, without acknowledging 2006. Because of this tremendous accomplishment DB and SP have earned the right to be without scrutiny, be it warranted or not. Comparing any Saints QB to Db is pointless. It became clear immediately that SPs system and QB were the right fit. DB ypa dropped in his later years, that’s to be expected.

because his IAY is higher than most : One specific criticism I recall vividly, is that JW held on to the ball too long only to throw deep into tight coverage, incomplete. While the middle of the field was WIDE open. So wide open that kamara later complained that he wasn’t getting the ball. This tells me that JW has not yet gotten comfortable with the system. The system as we’ve heard many many times, is take what the defense gives you. He did not do this, he forced the ball when he should’ve dumped it off or hit the wide open WR over the middle. And again, the only reason JW is not the QB is due to injury. Then why did he lose his job when he was finally healthy? Was he ever healthy? Was he an ascending player in the first few games? Ans: Slowly. He needed at least 3-4 more games to see.

 

[Rexman100]

Get a grip man, Jamies was averaging 2 passing TDs a game in that 7 games, with that average. He was 5 and 2. If Carr has us a 5/2 w/ 14 TDS to 3 INTs avg. 2 passing TDs a game, you guys would throw him a dam parade. Jamies has thrown for 4000, 5000 yds a season most of his career. You are just focused on one stat line.

Nope, no parade. I’d say the same exact thing. Carr is lucky he’s 5-2. Tg we have a great D, because hes looking timid out there. Why is he forcing the damn ball 30 yards down the field when Kamara is wide open in the flat with daylight in front of him and all we need is 5 yards for a first? Now we’re punting. Like I said, JW was ascending albeit slowly, but an injury de-railed him. I have NO idea how Carr will perform with the Saints, so I don’t have a built in bias like you’re saying I do. Or whoever “you guys” is, I assume it’s ”you guys” is white people. Fine. But if you can only see black and white you’ll miss out on the high yellows like Mahomes lol. (Sorry I had to) This is not a black / white debate. Or the assumption that one is better at Qb than the other. This is about what we’re seeing on the field of play.

 

[SWJJ]

Who?




And you can speak to me cherry picking anything because I didn't. Only people that say I cherry picked something only do it because you got information your "eye test" didn't give you.

You cherry pick and manipulate data or fine tune it to paint whatever picture you want it to. You "break down" winning percent, completion percent, or literally everything. You have done it over and over.

Also no one's take except your matters.

As far as "Who?" you are being purposefully obtuse. It's the loaded roster that Tom Brady took to a super bowl. He was throwing to Mike Evans and Chris Goodwin. He Literally had 2 Probowl WR on his team. OJ Howard at TE. He even had Desean Jackson and Payton Barber to throw to for a couple of seasons.