PFF - have y'all seen this (1 Viewer)

[liveoakh]

He was extremely timid when he was completely healthy. Played scared. A QB is supposed to be able to put an interception, or a bad play behind him just like a CB does. I've seen games where Drew threw 3 int's but kept on slinging it. You can't play scared. Jamie's done

Was he timid when he went 5 and 2 , 14 TDs w/ 3 INTs in 7 games. Was he timid when, he had to play his opening HOME game on the road sticking it to Arron Rodgers and GB while passing for 5 TDs , 4 in the red zone and 2 from the 10yd line. That didn't look timid to me. The only Saints QBs to ever throw for 5000yds in a season and 5 TDs in a game is Drew and Jamies. "Scared" BS! What are you talking about??????

 

[David Robbins]

Was he timid when he went 5 and 2 , 14 TDs w/ 3 INTs in 7 games. Was he timid when, he had to play his opening HOME game on the road sticking it to Arron Rodgers and GB while passing for 5 TDs , 4 in the red zone and 2 from the 10yd line. That didn't look timid to me. The only Saints QBs to ever throw for 5000yds in a season and 5 TDs in a game is Drew and Jamies. "Scared" BS! What are you talking about??????

Yes, yes, and yes. Look up his stats. He was barely breaking the 200 yard per game mark. Usually, he was throwing for way less than that. Yes, very timid

 

[liveoakh]

Yes, yes, and yes. Look up his stats. He was barely breaking the 200 yard per game mark. Usually, he was throwing for way less than that. Yes, very timid

So, you are saying we should skip over his 5 and 2 record 14 TDs to 3 INTs and his 4 clutch TDs in the red zone against GB, jamies averageing 2 passing TDs a game..............................because he threw less passes in the early games. Calloway was the top receiver that yr.

 

[webster]

So, you are saying we should skip over his 5 and 2 record 14 TDs to 3 INTs and his 4 clutch TDs in the red zone against GB, jamies averageing 2 passing TDs a game..............................because he threw less passes in the early games. Calloway was the top receiver that yr.

You should apply to be Winstons agent. Apparently, no team sees his true value. I hope Carr does well, but I was not over the moon about his signing.

 

[David Robbins]

You should apply to be Winstons agent. Apparently, no team sees his true value. I hope Carr does well, but I was not over the moon about his signing.

If I may ask, why not. Who else could we have replaced Andy Dalton with and gotten better.

 

[webster]

If I may ask, why not. Who else could we have replaced Andy Dalton with and gotten better.

I’m not sure who would’ve been a better choice. I just didn’t feel Carr was a huge upgrade over Dalton, Hill, or Winston. Remember he was benched last season, and I don’t believe he had a good game against us. A few years back he looked really good, hopefully he can get back to form.

 

[Rexman100]

Completion percentage is TRICKY..lol. According to SISDatahub, Carr and WInston are identical from behind the line to 10 yards, Jameis has a better completion percentage from 10-20, and Carr has a better completion percentage in 20+ yards. Due to the increase of "dink and dunk" QBs, completion percentages were skewed and that's why they began to try to formulate things like CPOE. We are judging the completion percentage between one QB whose career average depth of throw is 10 yards per throw to another QB whose career average depth is 7.5 yards. Whether fair or not, they are view equally in the eyes of most.

Hey sometimes you have to believe what your eyes are telling you. That’s the first measure, the eye test, then stats to back up what your eyes saw, if it was true. Do you think the NFL scouts were blown away at P. Mahomes pro day because of his college stats? Or what they witnessed him doing in person? It didn’t take a rocket surgeon to figure out that PM was the next great QB. You can say the same about Burrows. JW behind center for the Saints didn’t pass the eye test. So all of this going back and forth with stats is moot. He simply wasn’t getting it done YET, and time was his enemy. He’ll be a late bloomer like Geno Smith. Or the Titans Qb, Tannehill.

 

[Rexman100]

Case and point where stats are meaningless.

Its the Raiders guys, they have been horrible for generations because of the disfunction of the upper leadership. Example: Josh McDaniels / Hue Jackson / Callahan / Turner / Kiffin / Cable / Allen -- all horrible choices for Head Coachs and most of them only lasted 1 to 1.5 seasons - how do you expect to build a winning team when your main leader is replaced every 1.5 years?

Put yourself in any job youve worked in. How much of your success is because you had a great team around you or a leader that pushed you to greatness?

We don't know what Carr brings to the table. He finally is getting an opportunity to come to a stable organization, with real proven talent on the roster instead of a team full of drafted potentials.

Exactly, thats why they play the games. Let’s sit back and see for ourselves. You either have hope or you don’t.

 

[Rexman100]

So, you are saying we should skip over his 5 and 2 record 14 TDs to 3 INTs and his 4 clutch TDs in the red zone against GB, jamies averageing 2 passing TDs a game..............................because he threw less passes in the early games. Calloway was the top receiver that yr.

If you’re at Air Force running the triple option, then you’re correct. But if you’re throwing less than 200 in Sean Payton’s offense you’re doing terrible. JW is a late bloomer. He’s not there yet.

 

[jahsoul357]

Case and point where stats are meaningless.

Its the Raiders guys, they have been horrible for generations because of the disfunction of the upper leadership. Example: Josh McDaniels / Hue Jackson / Callahan / Turner / Kiffin / Cable / Allen -- all horrible choices for Head Coachs and most of them only lasted 1 to 1.5 seasons - how do you expect to build a winning team when your main leader is replaced every 1.5 years?

Put yourself in any job youve worked in. How much of your success is because you had a great team around you or a leader that pushed you to greatness?

We don't know what Carr brings to the table. He finally is getting an opportunity to come to a stable organization, with real proven talent on the roster instead of a team full of drafted potentials.

Carr was a Raider for 9 seasons and was coached by 2 coaches for a total of 6 of those seasons and Grudens staff and offense was still in place after he was gone. And contrary to popular belief, Carr had great coaching. Matter of fact, let's compare the Patriots offensive ranking in 2021 compared to 2022. Also, let's compare the Raiders offensive ranking in 2022 compared to most of the seasons Carr has been there. McDaniels might suck as it relates to people but I think their situation might look different next season.

Hey sometimes you have to believe what your eyes are telling you. That’s the first measure, the eye test, then stats to back up what your eyes saw, if it was true. Do you think the NFL scouts were blown away at P. Mahomes pro day because of his college stats? Or what they witnessed him doing in person? It didn’t take a rocket surgeon to figure out that PM was the next great QB. You can say the same about Burrows. JW behind center for the Saints didn’t pass the eye test. So all of this going back and forth with stats is moot. He simply wasn’t getting it done YET, and time was his enemy.

He didn't pass the "eye test" but the problem is nobody really looked at things outside of him and I will be the first to say that I believe that folks were "overly critical." Every pass had to be perfect and every read had to be the right one (guess what; Drew Brees made the wrong read plenty and threw his fair share of bad passes,). And honestly, we were expecting him to create miracles given what we actually had to work with in 2021.

Did Jameis make some bad throws and wrong reads at times? Yes but my eye test also showed a line that could barely protect, RBs outside of Kamara that couldn't push the ball, WRs who were bottom of the league in separation with all of our quarterbacks being among the highest in drop percentage (and film actually shows more drops that weren't count) and no kicker that could consistently make a FG. And even with this, before injury, the Saints were one of the most efficient team in terms of scoring, Jameis was among the league leaders in TD passes, and we were top 10 in converting 3rd downs. This is why I also mentioned in the past that the eye test is "finicky." A lot of people talk about eye test but can't see the forest for the trees. The only game we can really look at be and be like "man, Jameis was trash" was the COVID game, and truth be told, our entire team played like trash that day. That was a horrible game on both sides of the ball.

And Mahomes or Burrow drafted to the Urban Meyer Jags would have been a different story. Mahomes was not drafted to turn a franchise around; he was drafted to get them over the hump. Hall of Fame coach, proven offense, and winning culture was already in place. He was drafted to probably the best situation any QB has been drafted into. And people hated when I said this but Chase getting drafted there was the X-Factor, because it gave Burrow the best receiver core in the NFL and he benefitted from that greatly, unless we ignored 2020 before he got injured. Situation matters as much as skill.

He’ll be a late bloomer like Geno Smith. Or the Titans Qb, Tannehill.

Neither were late bloomers; they just went to situations where coaching believed in them. Did he need to mature up some? Yes, indeed but Geno always had the skill to play in this league. But we somehow overlook the fact that he was drafted to the New York Jets and Tannehill was drafted by the Joe Philbin Dolphins? We seem to ignore the situation that a player is drafted in, unless we like that player. The Raiders are not the only dysfunctional organization in the league..lol

If you’re at Air Force running the triple option, then you’re correct. But if you’re throwing less than 200 in Sean Payton’s offense you’re doing terrible. JW is a late bloomer. He’s not there yet.

You do know that those TD numbers had him among the best in the league at the time of his injury, right? LOL. And he only threw less than 200 yards the first 3 games; he threw over 200 the last 3 and they began opening up the offense since the Giants game., as he averaged over 30+ passes his last 3 full games. Plus a late bloomer throw for over 5k yards in a season; I'm just saying...lol

 

[Rexman100]

Carr was a Raider for 9 seasons and was coached by 2 coaches for a total of 6 of those seasons and Grudens staff and offense was still in place after he was gone. And contrary to popular belief, Carr had great coaching. Matter of fact, let's compare the Patriots offensive ranking in 2021 compared to 2022. Also, let's compare the Raiders offensive ranking in 2022 compared to most of the seasons Carr has been there. McDaniels might suck as it relates to people but I think their situation might look different next season.


He didn't pass the "eye test" but the problem is nobody really looked at things outside of him and I will be the first to say that I believe that folks were "overly critical." Every pass had to be perfect and every read had to be the right one (guess what; Drew Brees made the wrong read plenty and threw his fair share of bad passes,). And honestly, we were expecting him to create miracles given what we actually had to work with in 2021.

Did Jameis make some bad throws and wrong reads at times? Yes but my eye test also showed a line that could barely protect, RBs outside of Kamara that couldn't push the ball, WRs who were bottom of the league in separation with all of our quarterbacks being among the highest in drop percentage (and film actually shows more drops that weren't count) and no kicker that could consistently make a FG. And even with this, before injury, the Saints were one of the most efficient team in terms of scoring, Jameis was among the league leaders in TD passes, and we were top 10 in converting 3rd downs. This is why I also mentioned in the past that the eye test is "finicky." A lot of people talk about eye test but can't see the forest for the trees. The only game we can really look at be and be like "man, Jameis was trash" was the COVID game, and truth be told, our entire team played like trash that day. That was a horrible game on both sides of the ball.

And Mahomes or Burrow drafted to the Urban Meyer Jags would have been a different story. Mahomes was not drafted to turn a franchise around; he was drafted to get them over the hump. Hall of Fame coach, proven offense, and winning culture was already in place. He was drafted to probably the best situation any QB has been drafted into. And people hated when I said this but Chase getting drafted there was the X-Factor, because it gave Burrow the best receiver core in the NFL and he benefitted from that greatly, unless we ignored 2020 before he got injured. Situation matters as much as skill.


Neither were late bloomers; they just went to situations where coaching believed in them. Did he need to mature up some? Yes, indeed but Geno always had the skill to play in this league. But we somehow overlook the fact that he was drafted to the New York Jets and Tannehill was drafted by the Joe Philbin Dolphins? We seem to ignore the situation that a player is drafted in, unless we like that player. The Raiders are not the only dysfunctional organization in the league..lol


You do know that those TD numbers had him among the best in the league at the time of his injury, right? LOL. And he only threw less than 200 yards the first 3 games; he threw over 200 the last 3 and they began opening up the offense since the Giants game., as he averaged over 30+ passes his last 3 full games. Plus a late bloomer throw for over 5k yards in a season; I'm just saying...lol

When Jimmy G was a rookie and in his formative years, the fist NFL offensive system he absorbed in his young brain, was Josh McDaniels. Sorry but you’re trying to establish a ground work now for a later debate. (Nice try) Of course JG and the Raiders will be better next year. Carr has had 5 HCs and 5 systems to learn. It’s well known that Carr struggled with JMs system. Carr was demoted when JM arrived. JM took away what Carr prided himself on and what all vet QBs aspire, and thats to be able to call and change plays at the line based off what he’s seeing. The fact that he took this away is an embarrassment and you could make a case that JM had the intention to jettison Carr prior to the season, with the assumption that JG will be his QB going forward. The LV Raiders didn’t cut Carr to chase Aaron Rogers. They had this plan in place. Then when it came time to save money, and ensure Carrs departure they cut him with three games left making sure he’d stay injury free, making sure he wouldnt collect if an injury happened.

You’re slamming JWs team as reason for his failure. (Kicker, terrible Wrs, bad Oline) I’ll admit that’s all true, but that’s the NFL. You play the hand you’re dealt. In 2006. DB had a rookie lance Moore and Colston and Terrance Copper and an old Joe Horn. You can make a case that DB made these receivers what they are today, extremely well respected Saints, because he was accurate and threw to the right reads. I’ll pull up legit points and you come back with completion % and the eye test as finicky. We both know those are important attributes.

I’ll tell you what’s going on. When I ask my brain to run footage of JW as a Saint, my brain shows me multiple plays of a cautious guy trying to place the ball followed by a collapse where he threw multi picks over and over. In my mind it was one game, but in reality it was his time as a Saints QB. What you saw, because apparently you are a big fan of his and you wanted him to succeed extremely bad, and was emotionaly hurt when he didn’t. And there’s Nothing wrong with that. In your minds replay of JW game footage, you’re seeing all of the good passes and TDs etc etc. My point is, is that there’s nothing anyone can say, that would cause my brain to run different footage from the footage that is already seared in the brain flesh. And apparently same goes for you. I’ll say it again, he’s needs time, he’s not ready yet. As we have said, some QB thrive in systems that others do not. Maybe SPs system wasnt for JW? But one thing is for sure, is that he didn’t get enough quality time behind the wheel until he got injured. You never know, he could’ve played one more game, then it all clicks. I think he was trying to do too much. Holding the ball too long, taking unnecessary hits. I think it was TB LB White that cheap shot JW tho. But again, you see a completely different JW than I see.
You know what I mean about late bloomer. You also know for SPs system to work, there needs to be a minimum of 300 yards per game. Remember, Sean throws to set up the run. Not like most teams that do the opposite. if you don’t complete those easy passes, you can’t run either. The system fails.

 

[0rion]

Historically, how accurate have these media predictions been? I personally don't put much stock in them. Besides the factors they typically mention, there are things like injuries, officiating error skew, and team chemistry that play a part. Not so easy to get a handle on these items, yet as close as games are, they often determine a team's final record. Bottomline, these predictions are educated guesses wrapped in random events. They provide a revenue stream for media during off season, and emotional fodder for anxious fan bases. That's about it.

I tend to think media expectations end up being closer than our black/gold glassed expectations.

 

[jahsoul357]

When Jimmy G was a rookie and in his formative years, the fist NFL offensive system he absorbed in his young brain, was Josh McDaniels. Sorry but you’re trying to establish a ground work now for a later debate. (Nice try) Of course JG and the Raiders will be better next year. Carr has had 5 HCs and 5 systems to learn. It’s well known that Carr struggled with JMs system. Carr was demoted when JM arrived. JM took away what Carr prided himself on and what all vet QBs aspire, and thats to be able to call and change plays at the line based off what he’s seeing. The fact that he took this away is an embarrassment and you could make a case that JM had the intention to jettison Carr prior to the season, with the assumption that JG will be his QB going forward. The LV Raiders didn’t cut Carr to chase Aaron Rogers. They had this plan in place. Then when it came time to save money, and ensure Carrs departure they cut him with three games left making sure he’d stay injury free, making sure he wouldnt collect if an injury happened.

Actually, I wasn't trying to establish any ground work a future debate. haha. I was just saying that the team will probably look different, as it looked different with Stidham running the show, as he has been in that system for years. And if Carr struggled in McDaniels' system, why would you expect him to be given full control? He wasn't demoted; he had to learn an offense that wasn't based off an WCO.

You’re slamming JWs team as reason for his failure. (Kicker, terrible Wrs, bad Oline) I’ll admit that’s all true, but that’s the NFL. You play the hand you’re dealt. In 2006. DB had a rookie lance Moore and Colston and Terrance Copper and an old Joe Horn. You can make a case that DB made these receivers what they are today, extremely well respected Saints, because he was accurate and threw to the right reads. I’ll pull up legit points and you come back with completion % and the eye test as finicky. We both know those are important attributes.

It seems like you are missing Duece and Reggie in that. And Drew didn't always make the right read; again, this perceptions is coming from the Deification of Drew. We started 2007 0-4 and Drew averaged 232 yards per game and threw 1 touchdown and 9 interceptions in those games. Let me repeat; IN 2007, DREW, IN HIS 7th SEASON AND SECOND WITH SEAN PAYTON STARTED THE SEASON THROWING 9 INTERCEPTIONS AND ONLY 1 TD. lol. In 2010, Drew threw interceptions in more games than Jameis did when he threw 30. Gat dern; Drew is one of the greatest QBs to ever play this game but he was far from perfect.

I told you why completion percentage was finicky:
Jameis threw longer passes at a much higher rate (and huge part of his completions and attempts) than Carr. Passes less than 10 yards makes us the vast majority of Carr's completion percentage. Because he throws those shorter passes at a much higher volume, those dictate how the calculations are actually "weighed." But this is why CPOE was created and this is why Jameis has a higher CPOE than DC4. Once you peel back the layers of the completion percentage, then it goes into the "eye test" and as we have establish, when you put all of your focus on a player, you miss everything else. Anyone who watched any game since 2021 would know that the bigger problems resided outside of the QB position.

The funny thing is you are saying that you play the hand that you are dealt but then make excuses to why Carr hasn't succeeded.

I’ll tell you what’s going on. When I ask my brain to run footage of JW as a Saint, my brain shows me multiple plays of a cautious guy trying to place the ball followed by a collapse where he threw multi picks over and over. In my mind it was one game, but in reality it was his time as a Saints QB. What you saw, because apparently you are a big fan of his and you wanted him to succeed extremely bad, and was emotionaly hurt when he didn’t. And there’s Nothing wrong with that. In your minds replay of JW game footage, you’re seeing all of the good passes and TDs etc etc. My point is, is that there’s nothing anyone can say, that would cause my brain to run different footage from the footage that is already seared in the brain flesh. And apparently same goes for you. I’ll say it again, he’s needs time, he’s not ready yet. As we have said, some QB thrive in systems that others do not. Maybe SPs system wasnt for JW? But one thing is for sure, is that he didn’t get enough quality time behind the wheel until he got injured. You never know, he could’ve played one more game, then it all clicks. I think he was trying to do too much. Holding the ball too long, taking unnecessary hits. I think it was TB LB White that cheap shot JW tho. But again, you see a completely different JW than I see.

Jameis has only thrown multiple picks 3 times in 10 games with the Saints. And in one of those games, it was a tipped pass and a last minute hail mary. Were you really watching the games?
And contrary to popular belief, I'm not emotionally tied to a player succeeding or failing because it doesn't equal my success, I don't gamble, nor play fantasy football..lol. And you think that I'm just seeing good passes when in the same post, I said that Jameis made bad passes and reads. What I don't do is grade him on a standard that we never held Drew to. Drew made horrible throws; there was never 4k photos to critique them. Drew made plenty of bad reads but we didn't have articles on articles talking about it. And I will say this again; when your "eye test" defaults to being "overly critical," it can't be trusted because all of your focus on that player, and that player alone. If all you can speak about if how many yards Jameis threw for without even acknowledging the situation of the team, what all were you looking at?

And Jameis held the ball longer because his IAY is higher than most. The further you throw the ball, the longer your actually hold it.

You know what I mean about late bloomer. You also know for SPs system to work, there needs to be a minimum of 300 yards per game. Remember, Sean throws to set up the run. Not like most teams that do the opposite. if you don’t complete those easy passes, you can’t run either. The system fails.

What if I told you, from 2017 - 2020, Drew only threw 17 300+ games out of 54 starts? Matter of fact, from 2017 to his retirement, Drew only averaged like 260 yards per game.
And the whole pass to run thing doesn't fly for 2021 because who did we have running the ball? AK and AK alone...lol. When Mark Ingram left, we had Murray. When Murray left in 2021, who did we have? Crap, we can say the same thing regarding this past season. Run game was FLAT.

 

[liveoakh]

If you’re at Air Force running the triple option, then you’re correct. But if you’re throwing less than 200 in Sean Payton’s offense you’re doing terrible. JW is a late bloomer. He’s not there yet.

Get a grip man, Jamies was averaging 2 passing TDs a game in that 7 games, with that average. He was 5 and 2. If Carr has us a 5/2 w/ 14 TDS to 3 INTs avg. 2 passing TDs a game, you guys would throw him a dam parade. Jamies has thrown for 4000, 5000 yds a season most of his career. You are just focused on one stat line.

 

[David Robbins]

Get a grip man, Jamies was averaging 2 passing TDs a game in that 7 games, with that average. He was 5 and 2. If Carr has us a 5/2 w/ 14 TDS to 3 INTs avg. 2 passing TDs a game, you guys would throw him a dam parade. Jamies has thrown for 4000, 5000 yds a season most of his career. You are just focused on one stat line.

Jamie's also threw over 30 int's in a season, which no other QB has ever done. Jamie's eye test is this. One game he will look like the best QB in the NFL, then the next, he looks like a flop.

@ the QB position, you can't be tentative, nor hold on to a bad play in your mind. Jamie's done that. You have to go on to the next play.

Personally, I don't think he is cut out for the WCO. He needs to be in a system like the air corryelle system that will utilize his arm.