Saints could get to $14.61 million under the cap without restructuring Derek Carr, after Saints salary cap potentially increases by $5M (29 Viewers)

[DSnfla]

Why would next year be a different story? If the team believes he is a top 10 option then they should build around him for the long haul. If they don't, then get started on the future.

I'm fine with either option but I'm not crazy about keeping Carr as a placeholder with the intent to cut him next year. Now is the time to reset the culture of the future. Moore needs to decide if the future is Derek Carr.

Because NO 34 yr old QB is going to be a long term answer

 

[StudioSaint]

I agree that the first year Loomis went back on what he said the plan was. The second year he kind of did it again for Carr but I think it was because he didn't expect Carr to be available.

It's possible that Loomis's plan wasn't specifically what you thought it would be and that Loomis followed exactly what his plan was without going back on it.

 

[DSnfla]

It isn't black and white. Regardless of what Kellen Moore said in his press conference about wanting to compete in 2025, this has the makings of a rebuild. No team actually announces a rebuild, the message is always "compete".

If this team were locked and loaded, coming off of a prime season that ended in disappointing fashion, and we now have a head coach who is capable of getting us over the hump? Yes, we absolutely keep Carr because it makes sense.

But the reality is we're coming off of a horrible season and this is a roster, and whether folks want to admit it or not, that needs to be rebuilt.

With or without Carr, this team is at least 2-3 years out from making serious noise. I don't think it makes a ton of sense to run it back with a quarterback who has already peaked, and is likely to be on the downward slope of his career by the team that this team is ready to compete (assuming we draft well.)

I'd much rather avoid the restructure of our very old and underperforming vets (Davis, Jordan, Mathieu) and rip the quarterback band-aid off now instead of later. Even if it restricts what we do in FA this year. I don't see a real need to spenders in year 1 anyway for the reasons mentioned above. At that point it doesn't matter what we do at quarterback. The no brainer would be to see what Kellen thinks Rattler, since he's shown flashes and has the arm talent. If he doesn't show it, we're in a prime position to land a guy next year to hopefully build around.

It doesn't have to look pretty in year 1. Dan Campbell went 3-13 in his first year in Detroit. Even in a down year, there can be a lot of things to build on.

There's a good chance that the people in charge feel differently, but if you're wondering why there's a large portion of people wanting to cut ties with Carr now instead of later, the above is why I'm for it from strictly a football and roster building standpoint.

We can't do both. You can't cut DC AND not restructure DD,Cam and Mathieu. In order to cut Carr even a 6/1 cut we would have to restructure most of the team.

I disagree, we are not as bad as you make it out to be. Our biggest issues last yr were a bad HC and INJURIES. I think that we have taken care of the coaching issues and I doubt that the coming yr can be as bad as last yr as far as injuries go.

Cutting DC 6/1 damages the team more than cutting him next yr. We would lose out on our own FAs. We would waste $ on a cheap vet QB or even worse have a throw away yr with a 1st time HC by being forced to start Rattler. There would be NO FA upgrade signings.

That's not a good way to start a new HC's regime losing 12-14 games in the 1st yr.
You bring up Campbell and Detroit, The Lions had 20 top 100 picks in the last 5 yrs including a #2 #3 and a #7 and they got Goff in the Stafford
trade . We don't have that luxury

 

[bayoumilitia]

It comes down to which poison you want to take.

Restructure Carr and roll with him this season, or restructure all the other aging vets and risk paying them in a year or two when they aren't here anymore.

We're already paying Michael Thomas, Jameis Winston, and Marshon Lattimore not to be here.

I hear ya Sup, you along with many others have mentioned the restructuring of Carr’s contract but Carr has to agree to a restructure. I could have sworn that Carr already said that he’s not going to do that. So isn’t this irrelevant?

If Coach Moore wants and Nuss wants a different QB to run their offense other than Carr then they are more likely than not actively trying to find a team to trade for him not restructure his contract. If not then they will keep Carr, kick the can to 2026 wether the fan base likes it or not and have Carr mentor Ratler, a draft pick or watch another QB that they bring in.

 

[DSnfla]

"I’m not here to make an argument for one thing or the other. You can convince me on either path, which is usually the case when something reaches a legitimate crossroads. My take really boils down to this: I think Carr is the best option to win games in 2025, but there are valid reasons to start rebuilding now and take your lumps while you reset."

Nugget from Underhill from his latest piece. Of course anyone on here who prefers the latter just gets painted as a blinded Carr hater

LOL Nick likes to play both sides of the fence. Yesterday on Nick Cast he broke down both cutting DC 6/1 and restructuring him and making the decision to cut him next yr. And he said he'd prefer to restructure him this yr and make the cut decision next yr. Nick should have been a politician

Nick also said that the cap will go up by at least 22mil next season. If that's so restructuring him now and cutting him next yr even if it's a 6/1 cut would be more attractive

 

[DSnfla]

I hear ya Sup, you along with many others have mentioned the restructuring of Carr’s contract but Carr has to agree to a restructure. I could have sworn that Carr already said that he’s not going to do that. So isn’t this irrelevant?

If Coach Moore wants and Nuss wants a different QB to run their offense other than Carr then they are more likely than not actively trying to find a team to trade for him not restructure his contract. If not then they will keep Carr, kick the can to 2026 wether the fan base likes it or not and have Carr mentor Ratler, a draft pick or watch another QB that they bring in.

Carr does not have to agree to a restructure. It's built into every player's contract. He has to agree to a pay cut and an extension

If you think the 5-12 was just because if injury, then just taking Carr off the roster does not mean you are tanking. Frankly, if the roster really is around a .500 roster, and I think it is, we probably have just as good of a shot of making the playoff with Rattler or a young vet like Jones or Field, as we do with Carr. So I don't understand why you seem to think cutting or trading Carr would be trying to tank. It may end up in a losing season if guys can't stay healthy, but that's going to happen regardless of if Carr is the QB or not. And, as I have said before, Loomis has for the last few years spent very little on free agents outside of Carr. Whatever the final number goal is, it's clear that Loomis wants to get the cap better under control so he isn't likely to spend big this year anyway. And, as you suggest, the cap is really for signing your own good players that you drafted so, why would it matter if we don't have cap space to sign free agents this year?

The advantage of parting with Carr now is that you start the search for your franchise QB in year one for Moore and you create more cap space to sign the few good young players we have to extensions next year, while also having a bit of money to bring in some mid-priced guys to help build the roster the way Moore wants it. We can't do any of that this year without kicking the can on Carr's contract and/or other contracts and for the last few years Loomis has been unwilling to do that more than is necessary to get cap compliant. Gone for now are the days of creating as much cap space as possible by kicking the can. And, I expect they won't be back until we find a franchise QB.

We might as well start that process of finding a franchise QB in year one for the new HC. To do otherwise would not be fair to him because coaches succeed or get fired on their ability to find their QB. No point in not letting Moore get that process started this year rather than in year 2 when he would be another year closer to being fired because he hasn't found his QB.

DC is included in those injuries. We won 0 games without him as QB.
If you think that CKM is not going to be looking for the future QB just because DC is on the roster , you're mistaken.

Again to cut DC 6/1 means that you have to restructure almost everyone on the team, including DD, Mathieu, Cam and maybe Hill. AND we will not have $ coming back from DC's 6/1 cut till 6/2 long after FA has pretty much ended. We will not be able to sign ANYONE even our own FAs. So Adebo and JJ and Harris and MVS will walk.

You want to spend $ on Fields or Jones , Guess what now you're eating into that $ you got back from cutting DC and that's if , a BIG if they are available after 6/1

If you go with just Rattler and Haener and a scrub, fans are going to be quite testy come 12 games in and we are 2-10 and not a good environment for a young 1st time HC to be put in

 

[DSnfla]

I have a few thoughts here:

Moore will have his own vision for not just quarterback but this roster in general. Loomis even said in his last presser that our new coach would make the decision at QB. They aren't going to support him in cutting ties, knowing that the likelihood of a very bad season is high, only to can him. They're going to give him time to rebuild this thing.

Regarding fans and what sells, I think its obvious that Carrs personality does not vibe with this city and this teams fans whatsoever. I think most will be happy to be rebuilding to something sustainable, and what likely will be a top 3 pick in the draft if it is indeed as bad as you think it will be, as opposed to a likely average season that we would get with Carr.

Last, it'll be Arch Mannings first year of draft eligibility. If simultaneously Arch is balling out at Texas and the Saints are tracking toward pick 1, there will be serious fan hype even with losses. You know who would be good for business? Arch Manning. That's obviously a pipe dream, I'm using him as an extreme example, but even if it's another QB creating waves in CFB, fans will be paying attention and excited about that if we are in fact losing. What's bad for business is a losing season like we faced last few seasons (weak division, but a roster good enough to win it but can't get out of our own way); a losing season when it's evident that we are rebuilding isn't what you're painting it to be, IMO.

If we dug up Vince Lombardi and he was HC fans would be turning away in droves if he was 2-15 his 1st yr. That's more than likely the case if we cut DC this yr and go with Rattler.
If Carr and this team are in the hunt or wins the division next yr. the DC hate will go down, Winning cures everything even Brees Withdrawl Syndrome.

LOL 1st Arch Manning has played very little college football so the jury is way out on him. 2nd, there is no way on God's green earth that he will come out in 26. ALL of the Mannings played 4yrs of college ball . Grandpa, Papa and the Uncles will not let him come out early

 

[SonOfNOLA]

We can't do both. You can't cut DC AND not restructure DD,Cam and Mathieu. In order to cut Carr even a 6/1 cut we would have to restructure most of the team.

I disagree, we are not as bad as you make it out to be. Our biggest issues last yr were a bad HC and INJURIES. I think that we have taken care of the coaching issues and I doubt that the coming yr can be as bad as last yr as far as injuries go.

Cutting DC 6/1 damages the team more than cutting him next yr. We would lose out on our own FAs. We would waste $ on a cheap vet QB or even worse have a throw away yr with a 1st time HC by being forced to start Rattler. There would be NO FA upgrade signings.

That's not a good way to start a new HC's regime losing 12-14 games in the 1st yr.
You bring up Campbell and Detroit, The Lions had 20 top 100 picks in the last 5 yrs including a #2 #3 and a #7 and they got Goff in the Stafford
trade . We don't have that luxury

Not counting Carr, it takes only 10 restructures, or 8 restructures and 2 paycuts, to become cap compliant. That isn’t most of the team. Cam and Taysom are guaranteed to be approached for paycuts according to NOF’s latest article. Saints have usually restructured about 10 players each offseason.

An additional 2 restructures and 2 releases, all single digit salaries, also puts the Saints under the cap at 10M+. It’s not damaging at all to 6/1-cut Carr if that’s the option Kellen Moore decided to go at QB.

The team can create immediate double digit positive cap space for key signings through other restructures while 31M potentially arrives on 6/2 for later moves. Between a third to half of that potential post 6/1 cap space could also carry over into the 2026 cap space to cover the dead money from the 2025 6/1 release. That allows the projected 40-65M 2026 cap space to not be affected by a possible 2025 6/1 cut as much.

 

[DSnfla]

It takes only 10 restructures, or 8 restructures and 2 paycuts, to become cap compliant. That isn’t most of the team. Cam and Taysom are guaranteed to be approached for paycuts according to NOF’s latest article. Saints have usually restructured about 10 players each offseason.

An additional 2 restructures and 2 releases, all single digit salaries, also puts the Saints under the cap by over 10M. It’s not damaging at all to 6/1-cut Carr if that’s the option Kellen Moore decided to go at QB.

The team can create immediate double digit positive cap space for key signings through other restructures while 31M potentially arrives on 6/2 for later moves. Between a third to half of that potential post 6/1 cap space could also carry over into 2026 cap to cover the dead money from the 6/1 release. That allows the projected 40-65M 2026 cap space to not be affected by a possible 2025 cut as much.

Yes but of those restructures DD and Mathieu will be in that #. Guys that should not have their contracts touched due to being on the decline. DD and Mathieu should be left to play out their contacts without being force to keep them due to cap considerations.

That 10 mil from the additional restructures and releases will be enough to pay for the draft class but not to resign even our own FAs like Adebo, JJ , Harris , MVS not to mention any other FAs. Then there's the QB position. Are we going to waste 5-10 mill on a cheap vet QB, or start Rattler and pretty much have a throw away season? If so is that a good way to start CKM's career with the Saints?
I think we restructure DC this yr , sign our own FAs and maybe a couple upgrades, not restructure the aging players. Compete for the NFCS. Then revisit the DC situation next yr. CKM gets a yr to evaluate Rattler and look for a long term QB answer. Also the cap is going to be going up at least 22 mil next yr making it easier to absorb DC's contract even if it's a 6/1 cut

 

[DSnfla]

You keep and restructure Carr with that additional $40 million in money.. You're doing nothing but making the same or bigger dead cap cap for 2026 and 2027.

Got to remember that Carr has void yrs on his deal too.

And the cap goes up 22mil next yr and more the next yr. Plus whatever we pay him this yr comes off his contract. It's not an extension , just a restructure

 

[St. Widge]

I hear ya Sup, you along with many others have mentioned the restructuring of Carr’s contract but Carr has to agree to a restructure. I could have sworn that Carr already said that he’s not going to do that. So isn’t this irrelevant?

If Coach Moore wants and Nuss wants a different QB to run their offense other than Carr then they are more likely than not actively trying to find a team to trade for him not restructure his contract. If not then they will keep Carr, kick the can to 2026 wether the fan base likes it or not and have Carr mentor Ratler, a draft pick or watch another QB that they bring in.

Carr does not have to agree to a restructure. It's written into his contract just like other Saints players.

 

[DSnfla]

But you already said that free agency isn't the way to add talent to the team, which I agree with, so what would be the point in creating cap space this year anyway?

And, again, we haven't "maximized our available assets" for a few years now and aren't likely to do it again until we have a franchise QB.

Finally, Carr is better than Rattler, but Rattler will likely greatly improve with an offseason where as Carr is likely to stay the same or regress. And, frankly, the offense last year after all the other injuries didn't really look much better, if better at all, with Carr starting. Just look at the Giants game. The offense looked a lot like it did when Rattler took over due to the Carr injury. And it might not even be Rattler. Maybe they take a shot at Fields or Daniel Jones. Or maybe they draft a young QB that Moore likes.

Why is it automatic that Rattler greatly improves and Carr regresses??? LOL What if CKM get's more out of DC than KK did? And Carr was pretty darn good in the 1st 2 games when we were healthy.

And you want to spend at least 8-10 mil on Jones or Fields eating away at the savings we get from the 6/1 cut of DC

 

[DSnfla]

I think that it's being falsely framed as the team trying to lose. It should be seen as turning over the roster to suit the new coach and to give him the flexibility to make those changes as he sees fit without having to look at the cap ramifications of every move. And of course the players and coaches on the team in 2025 will work and play hard to win games. The question is if we're going for short term small successes of winning the worst division in football or long term chance at being a perennial contender. The former shouldn't be that hard, but the latter takes more moves than we have in year one of CKM and kicking those moves to future years wastes time that coaches in the NFL rarely get.

Many complain that Payton screwed up the cap and made bad draft picks that set up DA to fail. So why would we once again want to force this roster on a new coach? I genuinely don't see very many players from 2024 even being on the 2027 team. It's going to be mostly turned over the next two seasons because that's what new coaches often do. Especially with a roster as old as ours is.

It's not trying to lose it's dooming them TO lose

 

[Taker597]

And the cap goes up 22mil next yr and more the next yr. Plus whatever we pay him this yr comes off his contract. It's not an extension , just a restructure

Doesn't offset the extra 40 million in gtd salary for Carr. That's what a restructure will do. It makes all pending money gtd and make it real while pushing to 2026babd 2027. He already has a void cut on top of that. It's a simple math problem. Cut him now. Save $40 million long term.

Especially, if Moore doesn't want him. I get your gimmick is to argue every single human being on this board till your blue in the face and never concede. I just don't have energy for you, today.

Writing on wall. Carr probably doesn't want to be here anymore. Moore probably don't want him either. He's going to get hurt anyway if we play him. What's the point!? So, we can win like 5 games again and draft 6th?

 

[St. Widge]

Yes but of those restructures DD and Mathieu will be in that #. Guys that should not have their contracts touched due to being on the decline. DD and Mathieu should be left to play out their contacts without being force to keep them due to cap considerations.

That 10 mil from the additional restructures and releases will be enough to pay for the draft class but not to resign even our own FAs like Adebo, JJ , Harris , MVS not to mention any other FAs. Then there's the QB position. Are we going to waste 5-10 mill on a cheap vet QB, or start Rattler and pretty much have a throw away season? If so is that a good way to start CKM's career with the Saints?
I think we restructure DC this yr , sign our own FAs and maybe a couple upgrades, not restructure the aging players. Compete for the NFCS. Then revisit the DC situation next yr. CKM gets a yr to evaluate Rattler and look for a long term QB answer. Also the cap is going to be going up at least 22 mil next yr making it easier to absorb DC's contract even if it's a 6/1 cut

DD and Mathieu, as well as Hill and Cam will probably take pay cuts. And even if you did have to restructure them all it probably would not equal the cost of the restructure for Carr.